iraqi airforce in 1980s

^^^ thank you

Another issue is use of PGM by iraqi airforce
Can most of their strike planes be made PGM capable by 1982?
In theory perhaps. In practice I am doubtful. I am also a bit dubious how useful many PGM's that were potentially avalaibe to Iraq in 1982 would have been for land attack missions by the Iraqis that were actively opposed by the Iranians.

Replacing more iron bombs that were used historically with cluster munitions, dedicated anti run way bombs and other similar devices might have been another option.
 
^^^ thank you

Another issue is use of PGM by iraqi airforce
Can most of their strike planes be made PGM capable by 1982?

I would say no. In the early 1980s PGMs were still very much a new thing (yes I know they were first used in Vietnam), difficult to employ, and very expensive. Keep in mind that in Desert Storm only something like 10% of the bombs dropped were PGMs (yes I know the numbers were skewed a bit due to B-52s dropping large numbers of dumb bombs). However, the point is that in 1991 the world's premier air force was still dropping a lot of dumb bombs so in 1982 a country like Iraq is not going to have many PGMs let alone pilots who know how to employ them.

PGMs did not become the primary munition for US air forces until the later 1990s when GPS guided bombs entered widespread use.
 
I'm remembering a lecture by a USAF Major circa 1985 concerning North Korean fighter plane use. The elderly MiG 17 & newer tho aged and obsolescent models were to attack US/ROK F15s & other modern aircraft using carefully preplanned swarm tactics. The NK air defense controllers would use a sort of template to evaluate the flight profile of incoming Allied aircraft and select a set of attack profiles by pairs and individual fighters on ground standby. These old fighters were dispersed across NK in mini airfields that used local roads configured as take off runways. The aircraft and ground crew were kept in concealed & protected permanent shelters. When it was necessary to move them they were moved at night by transporters.

The air defense CP would activate a number of these dispersed fighters & the pilots were trained to take off and accelerate on a designated attack profile, either singly or as a pair, but part of a group vectored towards the target on multiple converging axis. The idea was to present a pair or flight of F15s with up to two or three dozen attackers converging in separate directions, and altitudes on the less favorable defense angles of the F15. While this required a lot of planning and skill or tactical judgement on the part of the control CP staff, the pilots only needed to be trained in executing a takeoff and guiding the aircraft on one of several attack combinations of climb rate, & vertical attack angle. These pilot were credited with only basic recovery & landing skill or training.

According to the lecturer the 'modern' NK interceptors would stand off and stalk the surviving Allied aircraft as they escaped the fur ball.

Obviously theres a lot that could go wrong with this. & it does require a ground control station manned by a well trained and talented staff. Reliable communications to the dispersed interceptor stations are needed too. But it looks better than trying to take on a flight of F16 or F15 with more conventional fighter tactics & obsolescent or antiquated interceptors.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
I'm remembering a lecture by a USAF Major circa 1985 concerning North Korean fighter plane use. The elderly MiG 17 & newer tho aged and obsolescent models were to attack US/ROK F15s & other modern aircraft using carefully preplanned swarm tactics. The NK air defense controllers would use a sort of template to evaluate the flight profile of incoming Allied aircraft and select a set of attack profiles by pairs and individual fighters on ground standby. These old fighters were dispersed across NK in mini airfields that used local roads configured as take off runways. The aircraft and ground crew were kept in concealed & protected permanent shelters. When it was necessary to move them they were moved at night by transporters.

The air defense CP would activate a number of these dispersed fighters & the pilots were trained to take off and accelerate on a designated attack profile, either singly or as a pair, but part of a group vectored towards the target on multiple converging axis. The idea was to present a pair or flight of F15s with up to two or three dozen attackers converging in separate directions, and altitudes on the less favorable defense angles of the F15. While this required a lot of planning and skill or tactical judgement on the part of the control CP staff, the pilots only needed to be trained in executing a takeoff and guiding the aircraft on one of several attack combinations of climb rate, & vertical attack angle. These pilot were credited with only basic recovery & landing skill or training.

According to the lecturer the 'modern' NK interceptors would stand off and stalk the surviving Allied aircraft as they escaped the fur ball.

Obviously theres a lot that could go wrong with this. & it does require a ground control station manned by a well trained and talented staff. Reliable communications to the dispersed interceptor stations are needed too. But it looks better than trying to take on a flight of F16 or F15 with more conventional fighter tactics & obsolescent or antiquated interceptors.
Thanks for sharing that
So essentially " missile sponges" ? Probably not a bad tactic since one F15 is worth probably like 5 or 6 early model mig21 ? In 1985 prices ?
And during this time the SARH missiles of f15 meant they can focus on only one target at a time until missile impacts
 

Khanzeer

Banned
I would say no. In the early 1980s PGMs were still very much a new thing (yes I know they were first used in Vietnam), difficult to employ, and very expensive. Keep in mind that in Desert Storm only something like 10% of the bombs dropped were PGMs (yes I know the numbers were skewed a bit due to B-52s dropping large numbers of dumb bombs). However, the point is that in 1991 the world's premier air force was still dropping a lot of dumb bombs so in 1982 a country like Iraq is not going to have many PGMs let alone pilots who know how to employ them.

PGMs did not become the primary munition for US air forces until the later 1990s when GPS guided bombs entered widespread use.
I think I misunderstand the term PGM , I was including laser guided bombs, AS7 , AS10/12, AS-14 air to surface missiles in this category.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Replacing more iron bombs that were used historically with cluster munitions, dedicated anti run way bombs and other similar devices might have been another option.
The soviet mig23bn could be fitted with western cluster bombs and anti runway munitions ?
Maybe if they got the su24 early on it may be more survivable against F4 than export flogger variants
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Hard to do when you're on the offensive. The Iraqi army needs air support when it rolls into Khuzestan.
True I was thinking of after 1982 when iraqis were trying to hold on to their initial gains and even preventing the Iranians from making inroads into southern Iraq
 
Maybe if they got the su24 early on it may be more survivable against F4 than export flogger variants

I wonder how well equipped early export SU24's would have been. The Iraqi crews would presumably have needed time to learn how to effectively use the air craft.

Maybe if an ASB could have given the Iraqis a strike force similar to the Australian F111 force along with their crews and weapons then the Iraqis could have made significantly more headway than they did historically but I suspect even that type of force could have suffered significant losses against the Iranians.
 
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Would this work with the Falkland conflict though?

I do not see why not. Argentina air force was trained by ex Luftwaffe poilots like Adolf Galland
adolf galland
Argentina
After Galland was released, he travelled to Schleswig-Holstein to join Baroness Gisela von Donner, an earlier acquaintance, on her estate and lived with her three children. During this time, Galland found work as a forestry worker. There he convalesced and came to terms with his career and Nazi war crimes. Galland began to hunt for the family and traded the kills in the local markets to supplement meagre meat rations. Soon Galland rediscovered his love of flying. Kurt Tank, the designer of the Fw 190, requested that he go to his home in Minden to discuss a proposal. Tank had been asked to work for the British and Soviets, and had narrowly avoided being kidnapped by the latter. Tank, through a contact in Denmark, informed Galland about the possibility of the Argentinian Government employing him as a test pilot for Tank's new generation of fighters.[182] Galland accepted and flew to Argentina. He settled with Gisela in El Palomar, Buenos Aires. Galland enjoyed the slow life. His time there, aside from work commitments, was taken up with Gisela and the active Buenos Aires night life. Galland found South America a world away from post-war shortages of Germany. Soon, he took up gliding again.[183]

In a professional capacity, Galland spoke fluent Spanish, which helped in his instruction of new pilots. During his time with the Argentinian Air Force (FAA) he flew the British Gloster Meteor. Galland, mindful that it was a contemporary of the Me 262, commented that it was a fine aircraft. He claimed that if he could have fitted the Meteor engines to the Me 262 airframe he would have had the best fighter in the world. Galland continued training, lecturing and consulting for the FAA until 1955.[184] During his later years in Argentina Galland returned to Europe to test fly new types. While there, he teamed up with Eduard Neumann, the former Geschwaderkommodore of Jagdgeschwader 27 and mentor of Hans-Joachim Marseille "The Star of Africa". Neumann had joined Galland's staff in April 1943. They flew a Piaggio P.149 in an international air rally across Italy. The weather was appalling and seven aircraft crashed taking two lives. Galland and Neumann came in second place.[185 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Galland#Argentina

They could also go to south Africa. The South African air-force used a lot of Mirages.
 
I think I misunderstand the term PGM , I was including laser guided bombs, AS7 , AS10/12, AS-14 air to surface missiles in this category.

Those types of munitions are what I meant, that is what existed at the time and by and large they were expensive and required a lot of training to employ. The Iraqis did have the AS-7, I doubt they did much with it.
 
Strategy and tactics are important, but I would also be looking at the Iraqi Air Force's organisational structure.

How can you encourage independence and initiative within the confines of an authoritarian regime? What were the Iraqi's aircraft serviceability like and how long did it take for their pilots to progress through their training pipeline? Is it possible to supplement the Iraqi pilots with international pilots from India or Pakistan. How many flying hours did the average Iraqi pilot receive per annum and can this be increased to the NATO minimum. How did they select pilots and were the recruitment pathways open to all of Iraq to make sure that the most possible individuals are flying advanced aircraft irrespective of their religious or ethnic background.

This probably wasn't too much help, but I would conduct a deep dive into the the organisational bottlenecks of the Air Force first and then alleviate them concurrent with improving the tactics & strategy.
 

SsgtC

Banned
How did they select pilots and were the recruitment pathways open to all of Iraq to make sure that the most possible individuals are flying advanced aircraft irrespective of their religious or ethnic background.
Short answer? They were chosen based on political reliability and only members of the Baath Party were eligible. And membership in the Baath Party was largely restricted to Suni Muslims.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Short answer? They were chosen based on political reliability and only members of the Baath Party were eligible. And membership in the Baath Party was largely restricted to Suni Muslims.
Wonder why shias didn't join Baath party ?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Right, wont be available until mid-war. But the contract alone would ensure French involvement in training, and more Mirage F1s, maybe Jaguars.
Mirage F1 even in larger numbers couldn't counter F14 any better than mig23ML or mig25PD I would think
 
During the iran iraq war , iraqi airforce was always on the back foot
What kind of strategy and tactics can they adopt right from the start to help them cope with IIAF ?
Assuming their weapon suppliers are still primarily USSR and France
And iranian airforce is same as in the OTL

Leave frontal air defense to GBAD, use fighters for defense to sap out Iranian strength, use SCUD's against Iranian air bases, use offensive air power only very selectively against critical targets, such as Iranian oil infrastructure to destroy their economy.
 
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