Iran's Military without the Islamic Revolution

@ TheMann Very detailed response. I really need to look at GNP figures and actual budgets but still, the scale just makes my eyes pop. How quickly do they purchase and integrate such a force?
The Army alone makes my inner accountant queasy. Then the navy and the Air Force?!? You'd need the non-US military budget of NATO to field and maintain those forces.
Iran was/is a rich country and under decent management, a good second world economy assuming good economic growth 1975-1995. That's a dangerous assumption things stay good that long w/o a hiccup, though.

Wouldn't that military be a burden that'd shank Iranian economic growth?

Let's and look at the economics...

I've read papers that suggest Iran could have reached Western European levels of GDP per capita as early as the mid-1990s in PPP terms (Esfahani and Pesaran, 2008), there was actually one put out last year that tried to estimate what the Iranian GDP per capita could have been if the revolution not occurred (Jahan-Parvar 2012). It falls short, IMO, in that it ties the GDP growth rates to regional averages, but the Iranian economy's growth pattern and trajectory was quite different from the region as a whole.

My POD is the Shah realised the full extent of his illness in 1973-4 and steps away a bit from the governing processes, which is crucial, as that was the time he forced the revision of the Five-Year Plan to double the budget, and projected a 26% growth rate- which was obviously unsustainable. In OTL this led to inflation and a recession-GDP peaked in 1976 and fell from there-which I believe was the main catalyst for the revolution. (Disclaimer: I'm an economics student who thinks everything is caused by economics :D)

Personally I think the 1990s is a bit too optimistic, someone (Harris 2009) actually said the parameters of Esfahani and Pesaran were misleading.

But I have my models, and I have for Iran, as of 2012:

GDP (nominal): $2.002 trillion
GDP Rank: 10th
x greater than OTL: 3.65

GDP (nominal) per capita: $32,506.45
GDP per capita Rank: 29th
x greater than OTL: 4.51

Population: 61,577,757
Population Rank: 23rd
x less than OTL: -1.25

GDP growth in 2013: 3.95%
2013 GDP projection: $2.114 trillion (8th)*
GDP per capita growth in 2013: 2.68%
2013 GDP per capita projection: $33,909.58 (28th)*


I used World Bank data, so my rankings are relative to theirs. (*) - However the 2013 projection rankings are relative to the IMF projections. It is also worth noting that Iran would surpass the EU GDP per capita average in 2013, however, it would remain $2,006 below the OECD average. It's awfully late here, so my survey of the political situation will wait until tomorrow.

irans2_zps6b3673ee.png


Here you have gross GDP, in constant dollars, with an inflation adjusted figure in bright red.

irans4_zps4d2474b8.png


The same for GDP per capita.

irans3_zps65ec249b.png


And (real) growth.

At 2% of GDP that is $40.04 billion, at 4% $80.08 billion- #4 after Russia. At 4.4% of GDP, the same rate as the US and Russia, that is $88.08 billion, at at 5%, that is $100.1 billion- third in the world! So maybe not so unrealistic...
 
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The Pattons would be phased out over the 1980s - they are beyond their use-by date to start with, and the Chieftain is a far superior tank to the Patton. The fact that Iran was wanting to have them made in Iran, and the fact that Britain would probably agree to this if the price was right, makes this that much more likely. It also means that British tanks would be Iran's primary source, which means the oldest Chieftains would probably end up replaced by Iranian-built Challenger 2s in the 1990s. The drawdown would also see the Mk.3 and Mk.5 Chieftains retired, with the older ones replaced by the Challengers.
Sounds about right.

The F-84s and F-86s were obsolete by 1980 and would go immediately. The F-5s would be replaced next as well, with the Phantoms going in the early 90s as part of the drawdown, leaving a force of Tomcats and Eagles for air-defense, Vipers and Hornets for attack duties. Iran ordered E-3s and had 747 and 707 tankers as well, so if Iran can maintain and operate all of this, they have a seriously potent air force by the mid-80s. I can't see the Europeans being entirely shut out of this, and the Panavia Tornado is an excellent strike aircraft which would fill in a hole in the IIAF here. I'm thinking that the F-14s would be rebuilt to F-14D standards over the late 1980s and 1990s, probably with some Iranian-designed improvements as well. The F-16s would be rebuilt in the 1990s to F-16C standards, the F/A-18s also doing so in the 2000s. The Panavia Tornado enters IIAF service in the mid-1980s and remains there today. The E-3s get replaced by new AWACS aircraft in the mid-late 2000s, and the 707 and 747 tankers get retired, probably replaced by either 767s or A330s.
This is pretty good, but I could see them ordering more Tomcats instead of the Eagle. It had already won the initial evaluation against the Eagle and it would make more sense to buy the type already in use. Vipers forming the backbone of their fighter fleet and replacing the F-5, and the Shah did have an order of F-18s for maritime strike so we're good here. Good thinking with the Tornado because retiring the Phantom leaves a gap in their strike capabilities that the F-14 and F-16 can't fill for a couple more years. Maybe with Iranian funding a larger variant with bigger engines and longer range would be developed, giving the RAF the longer range strike capability they originally desired. I could see the Hornets eventually being replaced by more advanced Vipers, as they do the same job cheaper and have a larger supply chain. The E-3 could be replaced by a version of the Phalcon, and as far as tankers go, the 747 was way more capable in every regard compared to the 707 and I could see them lasting to this day. Maybe the proposed KC-33A based on the 747-400 gets ordered this time around.

Where does one start here? First, dump the WWII vets - too old by half even in 1980s. The Knox class vessels weren't particularly good ones and Iran can afford better, so no bother there. No Russian ships, either. The assault vessels would be pointless in the 1980s, though the Invincibles could be used as carriers in the Indian Ocean. That would be a package deal with the Brits, too - the carriers, Sea Harriers to equip them and a full set of Merlin helicopters for other roles. I would imagine that Iran would pick between the British or American vessels, no both, so the Type 42s never get bought, preferring the Kidds and Spruance class. AEGIS ships would be ordered in the 1990s at the earliest. The Alvands would be retired in the 1990s with the drawdown. Kortenaer-class vessels would probably get major upgrades in the 1990s. The Bayandors would have been retired in the 1980s. Tangs and Type 206s wouldn't have been bought, but plenty of Type 209s would have been, probably with most Iranian Type 209s built in yards in Khorramshahr and Bandar Abbas. The La Combattantes would probably be built, and I can see a bunch of Sa'ar 4.5s and Super Dvoras in the service of the Iranian Navy in the Gulf.
Everything looks pretty good here.

The Navy would take longer to build and assemble than the other forces, though I'd bet on the fast-attackers being done first and then the big ships. Some of the frigates and destroyers go in the Gulf, but most would be with the carriers on the open seas, particularly in the Indian Ocean and watching over the Straits of Hormuz, with tankers and supply ships (probably British-built, these) to allow them to have a long reach. Combine that with the long reach of Iran's air force here and you have a force that can drop bombs of targets thousands of miles from home, which is a useful deterrent. Iran's amphibious assault crews used a lot of British-built hovercraft for their duties and they knew how to use them, so I'd expect plenty of these in their fast-attack and assault units. Big amphibious assault ships would be around in the 1980s or 1990s to carry these and thus give an even bigger range to the fleet.
With forces like this, I think Iran would definitely be a first responder in situations like Somalia, Rawanda, Afghanistan, and perhaps Ethiopia. With a friendly power policing the Middle East and Africa, it would allow America to focus on more internal issues. This pivot inward could butterfly away the Gulf Wars, invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, leaving America in a better position politically and economically.
 

abc123

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With forces like this, I think Iran would definitely be a first responder in situations like Somalia, Rawanda, Afghanistan, and perhaps Ethiopia. With a friendly power policing the Middle East and Africa, it would allow America to focus on more internal issues. This pivot inward could butterfly away the Gulf Wars, invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, leaving America in a better position politically and economically.

I doubt that Iran would care a lot about Rwanda...
Afghanistan or Somalia on the other hand- definitly.

About pivoting, it would also mean a lot for American Pacific pivoting ( countering China ) in 21st Century.
 

abc123

Banned
This is pretty good, but I could see them ordering more Tomcats instead of the Eagle. It had already won the initial evaluation against the Eagle and it would make more sense to buy the type already in use. Vipers forming the backbone of their fighter fleet and replacing the F-5, and the Shah did have an order of F-18s for maritime strike so we're good here. Good thinking with the Tornado because retiring the Phantom leaves a gap in their strike capabilities that the F-14 and F-16 can't fill for a couple more years. Maybe with Iranian funding a larger variant with bigger engines and longer range would be developed, giving the RAF the longer range strike capability they originally desired. I could see the Hornets eventually being replaced by more advanced Vipers, as they do the same job cheaper and have a larger supply chain. The E-3 could be replaced by a version of the Phalcon, and as far as tankers go, the 747 was way more capable in every regard compared to the 707 and I could see them lasting to this day. Maybe the proposed KC-33A based on the 747-400 gets ordered this time around.

I agree that ordering Eagle makes no sense if you allready have Tomcat.
About Tornado, I doubt that Iran would have ordered them, if Shah wanted, he could order F-111 ( a much better plane for the role ) but he didn't...
Phantoms will have to due for Air-to-Ground role until replaced with Hornets in 80s and 90s... But I even think that Phantoms ( with good modernisation ) will last until early 2000s... So no Hornets beyond maritime strike role.
Phantoms will be replaced with F-16 Block 60 in late 90s/early 2000s.
Why replacing E-3 with Phalcon? Makes no sense to replace superb aircraft only 20 years old when even USA will operate their own E-3 for 40+ years...
I agree that 747 will last into this day, maybe even several new 747-8 will be ordered. Or, Iran might actually order 5-6 C-17 Globemaster to take strategic transport role from them...
About P-3C, I presume that P-8 will replace them.
 
@ TheMann Very detailed response. I really need to look at GNP figures and actual budgets but still, the scale just makes my eyes pop. How quickly do they purchase and integrate such a force?

Realistically, a force like I mentioned would take 20+ years to fully train and set up, but that task began in the mid-1960s, so saying all of that is there by the late 1980s is probably not a crazy timeline for the building of such a force. As huge a buildup as it is, I don't think it's beyond their financial abilities. It stretches right to the limit of what is smart, but if they remain very friendly with the West throughout all that time, they could be a very nice counterweight to the Arabs, who have generally not been easy to deal with. If the Shah steps back from politics some in the 1980s and his country has a stable transition of power, then so much the better.

The Army alone makes my inner accountant queasy. Then the navy and the Air Force?!? You'd need the non-US military budget of NATO to field and maintain those forces.
Iran was/is a rich country and under decent management, a good second world economy assuming good economic growth 1975-1995. That's a dangerous assumption things stay good that long w/o a hiccup, though.

Wouldn't that military be a burden that'd shank Iranian economic growth?

It probably would be at first, but if you have a well-educated and skilled populace, resource money in huge amounts and a strategic goal of making your nation into an industrial power, such a military could be a crutch but could also be a big asset. How much is it worth to allies to have a friend with aircraft carriers and a long-arm air force able to extend influence across a wide region? A lot, I suspect. Iran here would be an important nation to the region and the world, and if they are as friendly with the West as they were under the Shah and it stays that way in the long term, the end result would probably be big investment in Iran by the West as soon as it becomes clear that their investment won't be a waste. Add in twenty years of economic growth and you'd make the job even easier.

Iran's huge armed forces purchases would be backed down a lot in the 1980s for the very reason you mention, and they'd want to make as much of their equipment as possible at home. The military's burden would be less as economic growth reduces the share of the national budget the Iranian armed forces suck up.
 
I don't understand what this number 2000 USD means?

In "Iran GDP (2000 USD )"

It means denominated in dollars from the year 2000. Because of inflation, it's misleading and inaccurate to compare quantities denominated in currency amounts, like GDP, across different years unless you normalize them to have the same amount of inflation (meaning that they're all denominated in dollars from the same year).
 
It means denominated in dollars from the year 2000. Because of inflation, it's misleading and inaccurate to compare quantities denominated in currency amounts, like GDP, across different years unless you normalize them to have the same amount of inflation (meaning that they're all denominated in dollars from the same year).

That is correct, as NothingNow also pointed out. I only included the lighter red line, which factors in inflation, so that you could get an idea of the "true" state of the economy.
 
Sounds about right.

I'd be inclined to think that the British tanks would probably also lead to British IFVs (FV510 Warriors, probably) but Iran would want to make their own APCs, which they very much have the capability to do on their own, either through a licensed design or one of their own. For artillery, their stuff here was mostly pretty old and they would want good stuff for this - conventional wisdom would say American or British artillery guns, but I'd also say this might be where Gerald Bull ends up. G5s and G6s for Iran instead of (or perhaps purchased from) South Africa?

This is pretty good, but I could see them ordering more Tomcats instead of the Eagle. It had already won the initial evaluation against the Eagle and it would make more sense to buy the type already in use. Vipers forming the backbone of their fighter fleet and replacing the F-5, and the Shah did have an order of F-18s for maritime strike so we're good here. Good thinking with the Tornado because retiring the Phantom leaves a gap in their strike capabilities that the F-14 and F-16 can't fill for a couple more years. Maybe with Iranian funding a larger variant with bigger engines and longer range would be developed, giving the RAF the longer range strike capability they originally desired. I could see the Hornets eventually being replaced by more advanced Vipers, as they do the same job cheaper and have a larger supply chain. The E-3 could be replaced by a version of the Phalcon, and as far as tankers go, the 747 was way more capable in every regard compared to the 707 and I could see them lasting to this day. Maybe the proposed KC-33A based on the 747-400 gets ordered this time around.

I don't know if they would order that many Hornets if they were only being used for Maritime strike duties, particularly if they have aircraft carriers and long-range strike aircraft to do that job as well. I only agreed with the Eagles because the OP mentioned them, I wouldn't bother with them when you have the Tomcat either. I'm thinking that the Iranian Tornados would use the ADV airframe and CFTs to give it the range demanded, and more powerful engines to allow it faster speed without the afterburners.

I don't see Israel selling the Phalcon to Iran, even in this world, unless the problems with the Palestinians have been fully solved for good, and the Iranian E-3s would only be 25 years old now and probably well maintained, my comment was based on Iran not wanting to maintain aging 707 airframes. 747 tankers do have considerably greater range and payload, but also require rather bigger runways and physically larger infrastructure, which is why I figured a combination of them at ones based on 767s or A330s.

With forces like this, I think Iran would definitely be a first responder in situations like Somalia, Rawanda, Afghanistan, and perhaps Ethiopia. With a friendly power policing the Middle East and Africa, it would allow America to focus on more internal issues. This pivot inward could butterfly away the Gulf Wars, invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, leaving America in a better position politically and economically.

I said before that I think the Gulf Wars would all be butterflied by this. Saddam was a lunatic but not an idiot, and against this Iran he'd get stomped in short order and he'd know it. Thus, he doesn't have the vast military he did IOTL and would be focused on what Iran was doing, so he'd never have the reason to go after Kuwait. Afghanistan is trickier, as Tehran trying to influence Kabul's actions in this world would probably make an American response MORE likely, not less, because Iran in this world is firmly on the side of the West and Moscow would not want Afghanistan on the side of the West, which would probably mean greater support for Najibullah. Whether Osama bin Laden would get into the middle of this is an open question - the fact that the Russians would be in Afghanistan and the fact that Pakistan, which at the time was ruled by Zia ul-Haq (something of an Islamist) would be by and large out in the cold - not needed by the West or East and not needed by either.

I can see Iran getting involved in Somalia and Afghanistan, but Rwanda is highly unlikely (though not impossible if Iran is looking to score points with the West....) and Ethiopia more so. The Shah's dreams included the making of Tehran into a major center between East and West and his hopes of an alliance of southern Asia is possible, in fact I'd say by the late 1980s very possible and feasible. Iran and India could end up working a lot with each other, and I can see this extending to the countries ringing the Indian Ocean from Australia all the way around to South Africa. India, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia, Kenya, and South Africa by the 1990s, the last three as their economies and political situations change to the point where they can be involved.

I agree that ordering Eagle makes no sense if you allready have Tomcat.

I mentioned that above.

About Tornado, I doubt that Iran would have ordered them, if Shah wanted, he could order F-111 ( a much better plane for the role ) but he didn't...

He bought the 747 tankers to give his forces a long reach, and I am sure his armed forces can see the problem relying on tankers can cause, which is why I proposed the use of the Tornado. The F-111 would be long out of production by the early to mid 1980s when these would be ordered, whereas new Tornados would be a question of cutting the check in the right amount.

Phantoms will have to due for Air-to-Ground role until replaced with Hornets in 80s and 90s... But I even think that Phantoms ( with good modernisation ) will last until early 2000s... So no Hornets beyond maritime strike role.

With a big stack of F-16s on hand I would imagine the Phantoms will be retired as part of the drawdown at the end of the Cold War.
 
I'd be inclined to think that the British tanks would probably also lead to British IFVs (FV510 Warriors, probably) but Iran would want to make their own APCs, which they very much have the capability to do on their own, either through a licensed design or one of their own. For artillery, their stuff here was mostly pretty old and they would want good stuff for this - conventional wisdom would say American or British artillery guns, but I'd also say this might be where Gerald Bull ends up. G5s and G6s for Iran instead of (or perhaps purchased from) South Africa?
I like the idea of them getting Warriors, they still wouldn't have all the industry necessary to make APC's completely on their own, so license manufacture in Iran would be most likely. The tech transfer would give them the knowledge necessary to design and build their own APCs, kind of like how Turkey started out with licensing the AIFV and now they build the ACV-300 series on their own, maybe something like that could happen with Iran designing its own IFVs based on the Warrior. For artillery I was thinking they would get AS90s lumped in the Challenger 2 buy in the 90's, and with Iranian funding the Braveheart variant goes into service instead of being cancelled. However if we have a situation where South Africa is visibly taking steps towards majority rule and dismantling apartheid in the 70's, there is no embargo and this could open up a host of cooperation with the two countries. G5, G6, and G7s built in Iran to replace their outdated artillery pieces, Rooikats as scout vehicles and to supplement their Chieftains and Challengers in the direct fire role, MRAPs and joint development on things like AAMs, small arms, SAMs, AT missiles, and PGMs.


I don't know if they would order that many Hornets if they were only being used for Maritime strike duties, particularly if they have aircraft carriers and long-range strike aircraft to do that job as well. I only agreed with the Eagles because the OP mentioned them, I wouldn't bother with them when you have the Tomcat either. I'm thinking that the Iranian Tornados would use the ADV airframe and CFTs to give it the range demanded, and more powerful engines to allow it faster speed without the afterburners.
I agree with you here, but as far as the Tornado goes, I was thinking something along the lines of the Panavia 300 with an internal weapons bay and F110 or F100 engines for commonality with the Tomcats and Vipers. This all depends though on how far along the Tornado's development is and how much it would cost to build this version.

I don't see Israel selling the Phalcon to Iran, even in this world, unless the problems with the Palestinians have been fully solved for good, and the Iranian E-3s would only be 25 years old now and probably well maintained, my comment was based on Iran not wanting to maintain aging 707 airframes. 747 tankers do have considerably greater range and payload, but also require rather bigger runways and physically larger infrastructure, which is why I figured a combination of them and ones based on 767s or A330s.
The A330 is actually quite a bit bigger than the 767 and is nearly the size of a 777 but with less range and lower fuel/cargo capacities. The 777 would be a better deal if they were looking for a new tanker, cheaper to operate and maintain than the 747 with a smaller footprint, but still larger and more capable than the 767 and A330. However I agree with you on the E-3.


I said before that I think the Gulf Wars would all be butterflied by this. Saddam was a lunatic but not an idiot, and against this Iran he'd get stomped in short order and he'd know it. Thus, he doesn't have the vast military he did IOTL and would be focused on what Iran was doing, so he'd never have the reason to go after Kuwait. Afghanistan is trickier, as Tehran trying to influence Kabul's actions in this world would probably make an American response MORE likely, not less, because Iran in this world is firmly on the side of the West and Moscow would not want Afghanistan on the side of the West, which would probably mean greater support for Najibullah. Whether Osama bin Laden would get into the middle of this is an open question - the fact that the Russians would be in Afghanistan and the fact that Pakistan, which at the time was ruled by Zia ul-Haq (something of an Islamist) would be by and large out in the cold - not needed by the West or East and not needed by either.
Looks good here.

I can see Iran getting involved in Somalia and Afghanistan, but Rwanda is highly unlikely (though not impossible if Iran is looking to score points with the West....) and Ethiopia more so. The Shah's dreams included the making of Tehran into a major center between East and West and his hopes of an alliance of southern Asia is possible, in fact I'd say by the late 1980s very possible and feasible. Iran and India could end up working a lot with each other, and I can see this extending to the countries ringing the Indian Ocean from Australia all the way around to South Africa. India, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia, Kenya, and South Africa by the 1990s, the last three as their economies and political situations change to the point where they can be involved.
This is a pretty cool idea.
 
I agree with you here, but as far as the Tornado goes, I was thinking something along the lines of the Panavia 300 with an internal weapons bay and F110 or F100 engines for commonality with the Tomcats and Vipers. This all depends though on how far along the Tornado's development is and how much it would cost to build this version.

Well, it occurs to me that air-to-ground weapons carriage was studied for the F-14 during the early 1970s but ultimately, of course, not implemented on the production airframe. It seems to me that if they're springing for an early F110 upgrade that they might as well get Grumman to look at modifying the airframes to support air-to-ground weapons carriage as well. Or they could buy the F-15E, although granted that would make them rather dependent on the United States.

I do think some posters here are getting a little...uh, giddy about the size and capabilities of the Iranian Armed Forces in a hypothetical no-Islamic Revolution timeline. Particularly since a major cause of the Revolution was overspending on the military, it seems to me that if the revolution is averted it likely means the Shah was less aggressive about projecting Iranian power or having the biggest, bestest military on the Persian Gulf. Even if not, what strategic goals are met for Iran by having a blue water navy and the ability to project force all over the place? At some point reality is going to have to set in, regardless of what the Shah wants.
 
The Strategic Irony of Continued Israel-Iran detente

I wouldn't call Iran and Israeli relations outwardly warm as the Shah was still butting heads with the Saudi royal family in being the head of OPEC. But the irony is that their military cooperation with the state of Israel would have let Iran satisfy their aspirations for strategic strike capability decades sooner. Despite the fact that the US still worried about Iranian nuclear development regardless of regime. Perhaps if the Shah stayed in power he would find this aspiration through the Third Way.
 
Well they had enough money and a large population to support. It only makes sense that they would acquire nuclear power, and as far as weapons, that is just a matter of time. Iran would get them, with or without the help of the US and Israel.
 
Well they had enough money and a large population to support. It only makes sense that they would acquire nuclear power, and as far as weapons, that is just a matter of time. Iran would get them, with or without the help of the US and Israel.

The question is whether they would want them. Nuclear weapons have potentially massive consequences to the region. Why do you think the Saudis IOTL are supposedly working on a nuclear weapons program of their own? Because IOTL Iran is supposed to have a nuclear weapon program. Combine that with a vastly more powerful Iran and the problem of potential proliferation goes skyward in a huge hurry. The Shah and his government would probably know that, too.
 
The question is whether they would want them. Nuclear weapons have potentially massive consequences to the region. Why do you think the Saudis IOTL are supposedly working on a nuclear weapons program of their own? Because IOTL Iran is supposed to have a nuclear weapon program. Combine that with a vastly more powerful Iran and the problem of potential proliferation goes skyward in a huge hurry. The Shah and his government would probably know that, too.

Well I agree with you, but they very much did want them. Iran provided a lot of funding for Project Flower and intended to use the technology to create their own missiles. Whilst this is destabilizing the region as you mentioned, I tend to believe that the US would side with the Iranians over the concerns of the Arabs, who quite frankly aren't the most trustworthy allies when compared to the Iranians. This could drive the Saudis into the arms of the Chinese who would have no qualms about giving them any sort of weaponry they desire.
 
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