Iowa vs Tirpitz

The U.S.S Iowa, lead ship over her class was in the Atlantic in 1943 and was based out of Newfoundland to counter the Tirpitz and its potential to raid convoys and cause unbearable amounts of mischief. Tirpitz stayed in drydock until September of 43. Now supposed Tirpitz sorties and Iowa is out and about. I'm not sure about what the two had in terms of taskforces but basically one on one what would the results be?
 
Iowa might take a hit or two but the Tirpitz will be sunk. If there are any CVE's operating with the convoy you might not even get any hits on the Iowa if they could get a hit or two on the Tirpitz with torpedoes before the engagement. With the Ultra information you might even get an ambush situation setup with aircraft finding them the Tirpitz first and then bringing in the Iowa with maybe one or two cruisers and DD's with it.

Worst case scenario is the Iowa has to go into drydock for a while to get fixed up after the engagement.
 
One thing is certain; Guns don't sink a capital ship on their own, so a one to one based fight will end in a ship with damage and one with less damage, but unable to make the kill. You simply neen additional ships armed with torpedoes to finish off the opponent.

USS Iowa had the advantage of greater gunpower, but rather innefficient accuracy, since it was still 1943, not 1945. Her protection was that of any post Treaty US Battleship, meaning more like a battlecruiser, than a battleship. Speed was considered more important than protection on her, opposed to the more advanced innerprotective scheme of a true battleship, like the Admiral von Tirpitz. (even when actually somewhat older in design)

In any fight the weatherdconditions would dictate the effectiveness of the German firecontroll, since the optical rangefinding and controll was second to none and far more superior to the US sytem of 1943. (excluding radar) German gunnery usually was very accurate, due to the extensive training of gunners. Possibly the Germans would score the first hits, as there would likely be only one target to shoot at. German 15 inch shells could easily pentrate Iowa's protection, as ther decks were only 5.3 inch at its thickest and possitioned high up in the hull, more to resist bombs, rather than large AP shell's. Her belt was only 12.2 inch thick and inclined, but covered only roughly 20% of the side volume, meaning 80% was not protected, while the German Bismarck Class had belts stretching deeper and farther, covering around 45% of the side, including the vitals, which were a bit exposed on USS Iowa. Diving shell's on USS Iowa could strike under the belt in the vitals, while the Bismarck Class had a secondary protective armored bulkhead 20 feet behind the main belt, extending from keel to main armored deck.

In any case, the side scoring the first hits, would propably be the side with the advantage (depending on where this first hit occured.)
 
Aye, I was just wondering what people thought were the superior ship mano y mano. Basically whenever the RN got whiff of the Tirpitz so much as leaving dock to move around in the harbor numerous naval and aerial assets were ready to engage. The British were very wary of the Tirpitz. If it made a dash for the Atlantic it wouldn't of course be just the Iowa engaging her.
 
Aye, I was just wondering what people thought were the superior ship mano y mano. Basically whenever the RN got whiff of the Tirpitz so much as leaving dock to move around in the harbor numerous naval and aerial assets were ready to engage. The British were very wary of the Tirpitz. If it made a dash for the Atlantic it wouldn't of course be just the Iowa engaging her.
King George V, and Anson among others I could name such as Rodney and her sistership, Nelson...
 
Hard to say. German fire control would be on the high end of the scale, I imagine, but American fire control isn't bad either. Weren't Iowa and her sisters designed as CV escorts, though? In that case, I think Tirpitz would have the advantage in a gun duel.
 

CalBear

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Iowa in a walk.

1. The American armor scheme was the best ever devised, as was the armor itself. Kreigsmarine AP shells would have been decapped prior to penetration of the armor itself, and the internal armor scheme of the Iowas was both unique and robust, with an interal armor around machinery spaces that was a great leap forward.

2. Tirpitz, like her sister, was designed to fight a Jutland style battle, at Jutland style ranges. Her deck armor was not capable of defeating the USN 406mm AP shell (especially the 2,700 pound version) and her side armor belt, while strong, was too narrow to defend against long range plunging fire (part of the overall weakness of the German BB underwater protection flaws). POst war testing demonstrated the U.S. 406mm shell would defeat the best armor the Kreigsmarine ever produced.

3. Gunnery radar for the American ships was far superior to anything every mounted on any Axis ship. This is, perhaps even more than armor or shell design, the critical difference between the two ships. The Iowa hit what she was aiming at.

4. Screening for the U.S. ship, even without the presence of air support, would be far better than for any German BB. Not only would the U.S. ship have more CA in attendence than the Nazis ever had in operation at any one time, she would also have a couple of CL that had 155 guns that were both rapid fire and able to penetrate the armor of the German CA (just as the USN 203mm could defeat major portions of the Tirpitz's deck armor at long range). The U.S. destroyers were also far better than the German counterparts, closer in capacity to the Kreigsmarine CL than their DDs.

There is a very nice anaysis of the merits of the different classes on the combinedfleet.com site.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/okun_biz.htm
 
Iowa in a walk.

1. The American armor scheme was the best ever devised, as was the armor itself. Kreigsmarine AP shells would have been decapped prior to penetration of the armor itself, and the internal armor scheme of the Iowas was both unique and robust, with an interal armor around machinery spaces that was a great leap forward.

2. Tirpitz, like her sister, was designed to fight a Jutland style battle, at Jutland style ranges. Her deck armor was not capable of defeating the USN 406mm AP shell (especially the 2,700 pound version) and her side armor belt, while strong, was too narrow to defend against long range plunging fire (part of the overall weakness of the German BB underwater protection flaws). POst war testing demonstrated the U.S. 406mm shell would defeat the best armor the Kreigsmarine ever produced.

3. Gunnery radar for the American ships was far superior to anything every mounted on any Axis ship. This is, perhaps even more than armor or shell design, the critical difference between the two ships. The Iowa hit what she was aiming at.

4. Screening for the U.S. ship, even without the presence of air support, would be far better than for any German BB. Not only would the U.S. ship have more CA in attendence than the Nazis ever had in operation at any one time, she would also have a couple of CL that had 155 guns that were both rapid fire and able to penetrate the armor of the German CA (just as the USN 203mm could defeat major portions of the Tirpitz's deck armor at long range). The U.S. destroyers were also far better than the German counterparts, closer in capacity to the Kreigsmarine CL than their DDs.

There is a very nice anaysis of the merits of the different classes on the combinedfleet.com site.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/okun_biz.htm

Thanks Cal, I was hoping you would stumble upon this. Your naval expertise is truly unmatched! So basically Tirpitz was screwed from the get-go and what she did is arguably better then what she might have done if she left port and headed for open seas.
 

CalBear

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... So basically Tirpitz was screwed from the get-go and what she did is arguably better then what she might have done if she left port and headed for open seas.


I would agree with this 100%

She was a threat that had to be honored, one that absorbed far more Allied effort and planning than would have ever been the case if she had actually sallied forth with a SBG. The idea of the massive naval battle is more stirring, but the fact that the British had to keep a dozen ships, including several of their best capital ships, in port just in case she broke out and that the RAF continued to lose crews and aircraft in attacking her for years probably makes her the most effective single battleship even launched.
 
One thing is certain; Guns don't sink a capital ship on their own, so a one to one based fight will end in a ship with damage and one with less damage, but unable to make the kill. You simply neen additional ships armed with torpedoes to finish off the opponent.

No offense meant, but the men aboard HMS Hood might have a thing or two to say about that.
 
No offense meant, but the men aboard HMS Hood might have a thing or two to say about that.

That is an awful example. Hood was commissioned in what 1916? It faced far more modern opponents and paid the price. That is like saying a Spitfire shot down by a MIG-25 is a fair. Hood was out of its league in WW2.
 
The Germans lost out on the development that happened with battleships in the 20s and 30s, and it told with Bismarck and Tirpitz.

Bismarck had inadequate protection of her propulsion system, too few and too unprotected rangefinders and fire directions (even considering her reduced speed and manouvrability, she stopped firing suprisingly quickly), totally dependent on all turrets firing for range-finding - the list goes on and on. Bismarck was a Jutland style battleship and it told.
 
Whatever fire-control directors systems were carried by Bismarck vs the Mark 37s and fire-control radars of the Iowa-class? The Iowa-class wins, hands down.
 
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It should be remembered that in the OTL USS Iowa and her sister New Jersey completely failed in scoring hits with their main batteries in the cleaning up mission of Truk in 1944, meaning their advanced firecontroll appearently was not so good after all. Against a single destroyer and a trainignship, only capable fo 18 knots at best, when in a good condition, opposed to a much faster German battleship in this scenario???

Evidence is clearly not very favourable to the so called "superior" Firecontroll of post treaty USN BB's. German OTL experience was more favourable in this case, as both Bismarck and Scharnhorst showed in their battles against both HMS Hood (and Prince of Wales) and HMS Glorious for the second. (In both cases none used radar, since Bismarck had lost hers already due to blastdamage and Scharnhorst only had a searchradar in 1940.) Scoring hits at 17,500 yards and 19,800 yards is pretty good, given the circumstances of 1940 and 1941. (Only the HMS Warspite Hit on Guilio Cesare at 27,000 yards was actually much better, never beaten in the records)
 
The U.S.S Iowa, lead ship over her class was in the Atlantic in 1943 and was based out of Newfoundland to counter the Tirpitz and its potential to raid convoys and cause unbearable amounts of mischief. Tirpitz stayed in drydock until September of 43. Now supposed Tirpitz sorties and Iowa is out and about. I'm not sure about what the two had in terms of taskforces but basically one on one what would the results be?


1943: propably before september (X-Craft attack)
The most likely outcome of the duel (with no escorts involved directly) will be both ships damaged, since the USN ship is actually too new to be efficient and will need time to secure a hit on the German ship, no matter at long, or close range. Likely defects will occur every now and then, due to her inexperience. (USS Iowa Commissioned on 22 February 1943.)

Tirpitz can use her superior optical rangefinders in the clear Arctic summer and her trainign and experience begin to tell soon. Given the protocol of High Command, she is not allowed to engage any enemy capital ship, uinless in selfdefense. She therefore fights a defensive battle and retreats as soon as possible, after USS Iowa is slowed down due to some moderate damage. Tirpitz's 3rd salvo scores an underwater hit on USS Iowa's stern, benting the starboard outer propellorshaft, forcing it to shut down, while its damage causes flooding of the engineroom driving this shaft. The fourth salvo scores two hits, one on the bridge, killing her skipper and otehr exposed personel, while teh second strikes foreward near the anchorspills. Three more shells strike, but without doing much damage, as some fail to detonate.

USS Iowa only scores two hits in this fight, one with her eleventh salvo, striking Tirpitz well foreward of the foreward breaker, withouth exploding. One shell of the eigtheenth salvo hits admidship on the superstructure, bursting when exiting the main hangartructure again. This hit causes a fuelfire of AvGas for the floatplanes carried, but is quickly extinguished. After this, Tirpitz is out of range, due to the slowing down of the USN ship, unable to persuit her target. Tirpitz returns to Norway, while USS Iowa turns back to the west to return to port. (Sadly to be hit and sunk by a torpedo from U-751 south-east of Iceland.)
 
Wow, a completely un-biased hypothetical account of how such an engagement would proceed! Truly marvellous, and in spirit with the board!:)
 
Cal, I think you're being a bit generous to Iowa here - unfortunately Combined Fleet is rather, well, optimistic at times re USN ships....

I dont know if Iowa had good quality armour - I presume at some point in the war the RN let the US into the secret bout better armour, but I haven't been able to find out anything about when/how/what ships were affected.

The Iowa is faster, so in theory should be able to control engagement range. This would be fairly long, as you state plunging fire against those heavy 16" shells is the weak spot for Tirpitz. The 15" fire can probably penatrate Iowa (they'll need to get closer though), but shes a much bigger ship and hopefully will haev got the decisive hits in early.
A lot will depend on who hits first. If its the Iowa, I'd assume she stays at long range and tries to at least disable Tirpitz (then she can just wait for the carrier aircraft to turn up). If the Tirpitz gets any useful hits in first, unless she gets a golden BB she's going to run. Of course, like at the North Cape, shes still going to be vulneravle while she opens the range, so it might well all go badly anyway.

As for the poor surface accuracy record of Iowa - its difficult to know if this was deficiencies in the system , or just a crew that had been spending all their time and trining on being a carrier escort...if its the latter, then one would assume that in the NA they'd have been practising with the big guns more.

My money would be on the Iowa, although I see her getting hurt in the process.
The ship I'd prefer to be on would be the 1940 Lion...heavier armour, and nearly as good armament as Iowa - she has a better chance of damaging Tirpitz without taking too much damage herself
 

Bearcat

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Cal, I think you're being a bit generous to Iowa here - unfortunately Combined Fleet is rather, well, optimistic at times re USN ships....

No, Okun is actually extraordinarily knowledgeable about various things naval. The Iowas were, all things considered, about the best all-around BB money could buy. Not quite the battle line ships the Montanas would have been, but pretty damned good.

I dont know if Iowa had good quality armour - I presume at some point in the war the RN let the US into the secret bout better armour, but I haven't been able to find out anything about when/how/what ships were affected.

US armor was quite a bit better than most. 12 inches of rolled US plate was worth about 16 inches of generic. There are resources on the web that discuss this in some detail.


The shell weight and the radar is going to seal the deal here. In a night engagement, Tirpitz is going to get the hell kicked out of her before she even figures out exactly where Iowa is. Even daytime, Iowa is going to take her. In fact, Iowa probably takes Yamato straight up, as well.
 
No, Okun is actually extraordinarily knowledgeable about various things naval. The Iowas were, all things considered, about the best all-around BB money could buy. Not quite the battle line ships the Montanas would have been, but pretty damned good.



US armor was quite a bit better than most. 12 inches of rolled US plate was worth about 16 inches of generic. There are resources on the web that discuss this in some detail.


The shell weight and the radar is going to seal the deal here. In a night engagement, Tirpitz is going to get the hell kicked out of her before she even figures out exactly where Iowa is. Even daytime, Iowa is going to take her. In fact, Iowa probably takes Yamato straight up, as well.
I figure Iowa could possibly take Yamato, but she'd probably get the holy living hell beat out of her in the process.
 
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