Invading Nazi-controlled Europe with Britain under Nazi rule

Magical123

Banned
Depending on the circumstances surrounding the defeat there most likely would be a rump Soviet state beyond the Urals and there's a chance they could have a "peace" treaty with the Third Reich (like in AANW) where they are kept perpetually weak by being forced to supply the Reich with laborers and resources. They would likely keep Gestapo and SS agents throughout the country to make sure they aren't violating the peace terms or plotting rebellion.

Even if the rump USSR wanted to continue the fight, there's no plausible/feasible way they could considering the Reich now controls the most vital areas of the USSR (and the majority of the Soviet population as well) plus getting a large army past the Ural Mountains against a prepared Wehrmacht would be ridiculously difficult as well, assuming they could reform the Red Army in the first place.
There's still a lot of people east of the Urals not including Central Asia.
 

Magical123

Banned
So in my imaginary wargame where the US has to liberate everything from Ireland to the Ukraine and the alps to Egypt what would the death toll look like and how long would it take,
 
It's a long time since I heard the adaptation of SS-GB on BBC Radio, but IIRC it ended with a failed attempt to rescue King George VI by US Marines. HM the King was killed in the attempt but the American raiders did get away with all the British research on the atomic bomb, which allowed them to defeat Hitler many years later.
 
the Reich will have effectively unlimited oil reserves, access to enormous amounts of raw materials
Would these both come primarily from the USSR?

How much resources would the Reich gain from an occupied Britain?
So in my imaginary wargame where the US has to liberate everything from Ireland to the Ukraine and the alps to Egypt what would the death toll look like and how long would it take,
Your question can't be answered because if the Reich had conquered Britain and now has the means and knowledge to produce thousands of nuclear weapons, there simply wouldn't be an American invasion of Europe since the Reich would use nukes to destroy the invasion effort before a single soldier steps foot on Nazi territory. A cold war is virtually certain due to the fact the US knows that you can't invade a nation with a nuclear stockpile and expect not to lose badly.
 
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CalBear

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Would these both come primarily from the USSR?

How much resources would the Reich gain from an occupied Britain?

Your question can't be answered because if the Reich had conquered Britain and now has the means and knowledge to produce thousands of nuclear weapons, there simply wouldn't be an American invasion of Europe since the Reich would use nukes to destroy the invasion effort before a single soldier steps foot on Nazi territory. A cold war is virtually certain due to the fact the US knows that you can't invade a nation with a nuclear stockpile and expect not to lose badly.
The Reich, in this scenario would have total control of Europe, from the Urals (assuming the A-A Line is the end of their occupation) to the Irish Sea and from the Arctic Circle to the Med. In all likelihood it would also be gathering tribute from the rump USSR.
 
All right, so Britain is out - Great Britain, free Britannica still fights on buy not much

Whatever Britain has left makes it to Newfoundland, Canada, and USA. The Bulk of the Royal Navy does not fall into German hands.

Soviets are out as well.

As Britain is invaded in and falls in 1940, USA massively starts to churn up the industry to war footing.

So US military in 1941 in the Pacific is a little better off, defenses are more. Embargo of Japan happens OTL. With Royal Navy, US does aid British Pacific bases, Royal Navy deploys more in Pacific since Europe is German bastion.

Japan strikes in 1941 maybe sooner than December, maybe with no guise of diplomacy, just a straight out attack. Similar to after France falls, Japan wants to rush in to claim Hong Kong, Singapore, the Gilberts ..... Have to attack US Pacific Fleet though to solidify.

Pearl Harbor goes down the same. Germany declares war on USA. Italy does as well.

US first response is to secure Persian oil fields and then work North to capture Russian Caspian oil fields around Baku and in Caucus. USA also supports resistance movements in USSR, Britain, France, Norway, ... occupied Europe. America is united in ridding the world of the evil Nazis and Japanese. The entire nation is behind Roosevelt.

So 1942 is a defensive fight in the Pacific and American move to secure Persian oil fields along with Kuwait and Iraq. USA targets German oil supplies, sees this as most vulnerable, on the fringe of the Nazi empire. If the USA cannot capture oil fields, they can at least put them out of action. Persia and Kuwait are first captured, Arabia is secured. Iraq is next for capture or destruction.

USA sets out to isolate Japan, Operation Starvation goes into full effect while bulk of US and Free world energy is set on defeating Germany. 1942 is defensive, ensure ANZACs are secure.

1943 - USA advances into Caucus mountains. Bomber bases are set up that can strike the eastern Med and Romanian oil fields.

USA goal is to not let Germany sit and solidify gains.

With no supplies being diverted to USSR - USA can fully dedicate to Germany. Even in WWII, USA was not 100% fully mobilized, was fighting with part of an arm ties behind the back. With a base in Persia or perhaps USA sets up base in free India, supplies flow to Persia and then to Burma .....

Canada and Australia are full in. GB is able to secure India, Pakistan, Burma after the downfall of London. Have to fight the Japanese in Burma.

Hard fight, but USA defeats Germany in 1948.

I like that North Africa, Portugal to Spain, to southern France rout as well. It will be a hard fight since Germany is not tied down as much on Eastern front.

B-17's and B-24's from Portugal then Spain and North Africa rock Germany. USA does not care about daylight precision bombing. They go for the jugular with fire bombing of industrial cities especially targeting oil facilities and fuel refineries.
 
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All right, so Britain is out - Great Britain, free Britannica still fights on buy not much

Whatever Britain has left makes it to Newfoundland, Canada, and USA. The Bulk of the Royal Navy does not fall into German hands.

Soviets are out as well.

As Britain is invaded in and falls in 1940, USA massively starts to churn up the industry to war footing.

So US military in 1941 in the Pacific is a little better off, defenses are more. Embargo of Japan happens OTL. With Royal Navy, US does aid British Pacific bases, Royal Navy deploys more in Pacific since Europe is German bastion.

Japan strikes in 1941 maybe sooner than December, maybe with no guise of diplomacy, just a straight out attack. Similar to after France falls, Japan wants to rush in to claim Hong Kong, Singapore, the Gilberts ..... Have to attack US Pacific Fleet though to solidify.

Pearl Harbor goes down the same. Germany declares war on USA. Italy does as well.

US first response is to secure Persian oil fields and then work North to capture Russian Caspian oil fields around Baku and in Caucus. USA also supports resistance movements in USSR, Britain, France, Norway, ... occupied Europe. America is united in ridding the world of the evil Nazis and Japanese. The entire nation is behind Roosevelt.

So 1942 is a defensive fight in the Pacific and American move to secure Persian oil fields along with Kuwait and Iraq. USA targets German oil supplies, sees this as most vulnerable, on the fringe of the Nazi empire. If the USA cannot capture oil fields, they can at least put them out of action. Persia and Kuwait are first captured, Arabia is secured. Iraq is next for capture or destruction.

USA sets out to isolate Japan, Operation Starvation goes into full effect while bulk of US and Free world energy is set on defeating Germany. 1942 is defensive, ensure ANZACs are secure.

1943 - USA advances into Caucus mountains. Bomber bases are set up that can strike the eastern Med and Romanian oil fields.

USA goal is to not let Germany sit and solidify gains.

With no supplies being diverted to USSR - USA can fully dedicate to Germany. Even in WWII, USA was not 100% fully mobilized, was fighting with part of an arm ties behind the back. With a base in Persia or perhaps USA sets up base in free India, supplies flow to Persia and then to Burma .....

Canada and Australia are full in. GB is able to secure India, Pakistan, Burma after the downfall of London. Have to fight the Japanese in Burma.

Hard fight, but USA defeats Germany in 1948.

I like that North Africa, Portugal to Spain, to southern France rout as well. It will be a hard fight since Germany is not tied down as much on Eastern front.

B-17's and B-24's from Portugal then Spain and North Africa rock Germany. USA does not care about daylight precision bombing. They go for the jugular with fire bombing of industrial cities especially targeting oil facilities and fuel refineries.

My question is would this need to be supplied from the Red Sea ports as well, and would it even meet the logistical requirements for a war in the Middle East. I think in 1943, the US has bombers that from Cairo-Suez the US could do bombing on these Romanian and Baku oil fields as well.

Also, on second thought, an invasion of the British Isles might not be that risky because the German garrison would be very limited in size and the potential reward is massive in liberating the U.K. for morale and from a strategic point of view.
 

Magical123

Banned
A German reich controlling all of Europe and the Middle East including the Suez Canal and the straights of Gibraltar would involve truly a mammoth of a campaign, it would be like something out of mythology. Hundreds of hundreds of millions dead.
 

CalBear

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What would you say to those who think the B-36 (with or without nukes) is a magic bullet in any strategic bombing campaign in Nazi Europe?
Too Slow. B-36B capped out at 380 mph and 38K (42K with a light load). The Ta-152, which was in service 3.5 YEARS before the B-36B had a service ceiling of 49K, and we are all well aware of what happens to heavy bombers without fighter escort (it is 1,500 miles from Iceland to Berlin, even the ATL stillborn P-82E double Mustang couldn't manage that). The B-36D (with the jet pods) didn't enter service until mid 1950 and could manage 439mph @32k, it is safe to assume that the Reich would have something similar to the MiG-15 (which was inspired, at least in part, by the Ta-183) armed with 4 30mm cannon and four AAM and a ceiling of 45-50k.

It is also worth noting that the B-36 defensive armament system was not even reasonably sorted out until early 1953, when the B-36H, with its new AN/APG-41A entered service. Prior to that date you would have an unescorted heavy bomber attempting to penetrate heavy defenses with a largely ineffective defensive weapon system.
 
Even if Germany exploits the economies of the U.K., France, and even the USSR, I don't see how they could ever hope to rival the US military (and you did say surface vessels). To try and to attempt to do so would be deeply unwise in the case of a navy.
The Germans don't have to have a navy that can bring their forces to the western hemisphere, they just have to have one that is big enough to make a cross-Atlantic attack impractical. Unlike the Japanese, the Germans will have plenty of resources to replace losses so clearing the way will take time and be very costly.
 

Magical123

Banned
In an absolute crazy possibility what's to stop the US from sailing to the Suez Canal or marching across Russia.

It would be something out of a movie, to mobilize a host of that size and then sail them across the world to march across the world.

I've played a lot of total war in my day but that's beyond my capacity to imagine possible.
 
If Germany occupies Britain before the USA is in the war, then the Suez is very likely under German or German/Italian control. If Japan and the USA are at war, the USA has to defeat Japan before they can send forces to Vladivostok and then across what is the rump Russia to attack Germany.

If you think the infrastructure in European Russia was crap in 1940, in Siberia, and towards Persia it was even worse. Getting LL from the Persian Gulf to Russia OTL require a major rebuild of Iranian RRs and highway construction. To support a US drive from there would require much more infrastructure construction in Iran/Persia and Iraq and this would be done with some level of attacks from German forces, U-boats attacking convoys from the USA to the Gulf, and potentially hostile locals. To support a US drive from rump Russia, you would need to, at a minimum, double track the entire trans-Siberian RR,build around the southern edge of Lake Baikal (not just train ferry), build sidings, stations, maintenance facilities, etc. This would take time, a lot of workers and a huge load of money as well as steel rails, locomotives, etc. While the USA is doing this the Germans are rebuilding the Russian RR system in European Russia to their gauge, double tracking etc. The Urals are a heck of a lot closer to East Prussia than they are to Vladivostok.

All of this is not impossible or ASB it would just take a long time, and a huge effort. Once the Nazis have nukes, game over its Cold War time.
 

Magical123

Banned
Where in your opinion could the US launch their invasion from (assuming the Reich has no nukes)?

I'm thinking either North Africa or Iceland.
North Africa if the Reich doesn't control that, with another front from Iceland and the various Arctic islands.
 

Magical123

Banned
If Germany occupies Britain before the USA is in the war, then the Suez is very likely under German or German/Italian control. If Japan and the USA are at war, the USA has to defeat Japan before they can send forces to Vladivostok and then across what is the rump Russia to attack Germany.

If you think the infrastructure in European Russia was crap in 1940, in Siberia, and towards Persia it was even worse. Getting LL from the Persian Gulf to Russia OTL require a major rebuild of Iranian RRs and highway construction. To support a US drive from there would require much more infrastructure construction in Iran/Persia and Iraq and this would be done with some level of attacks from German forces, U-boats attacking convoys from the USA to the Gulf, and potentially hostile locals. To support a US drive from rump Russia, you would need to, at a minimum, double track the entire trans-Siberian RR,build around the southern edge of Lake Baikal (not just train ferry), build sidings, stations, maintenance facilities, etc. This would take time, a lot of workers and a huge load of money as well as steel rails, locomotives, etc. While the USA is doing this the Germans are rebuilding the Russian RR system in European Russia to their gauge, double tracking etc. The Urals are a heck of a lot closer to East Prussia than they are to Vladivostok.

All of this is not impossible or ASB it would just take a long time, and a huge effort. Once the Nazis have nukes, game over its Cold War time.
Couldn't the US just build a massive navy and airfleet after defeating Japan and basically exterminating it so as to have garrison duty(not advocating genocide simply stating in this case the Us of the forties wouldn't blink from it) and basically ramp up war production like 500% build a truly massive naval and aerial host, and launch a combined invasion from Iceland, North Africa, southern Persia to the Black Sea and then across Ukraine and perhaps even across the Arctic Ocean.
 
Would these both come primarily from the USSR?
yes. Over 30 million tons of oil in 1938. Over 90% was from Baku.

Over 15-20 million tons of steel in 1937. Almost half from the Ukraine.

The majority of USSR iron ore is from the Ukraine.

Over 80 million tons of coal in the Donets basin alone.

The Germans don't have to have a navy that can bring their forces to the western hemisphere, they just have to have one that is big enough to make a cross-Atlantic attack impractical. Unlike the Japanese, the Germans will have plenty of resources to replace losses so clearing the way will take time and be very costly.

Just because Germany has a GDP similiar to Japan doesn't mean they have the dry docks to build a comparable naval force. Nor does it mean they would have promising chances against a highly experienced navy who also would happen to heavily outnumber them. Nor does it mean that they will actually waste the money actually doing it.
 
Couldn't the US just build a massive navy and airfleet after defeating Japan and basically exterminating it so as to have garrison duty(not advocating genocide simply stating in this case the Us of the forties wouldn't blink from it) and basically ramp up war production like 500% build a truly massive naval and aerial host, and launch a combined invasion from Iceland, North Africa, southern Persia to the Black Sea and then across Ukraine and perhaps even across the Arctic Ocean.
Reality doesn't work like a Total War game.
 
Short answer: Can't be done, at least with acceptable losses.

Somewhat longer answer: With the USSR defeated (with the A-A line presumably achieved) and the UK defeated and occupied there is no way to mount a reasonable invasion effort. Even a respectable air campaign is questionable since the Reich will have effectively unlimited oil reserves, access to enormous amounts of raw materials, AND all of the tech the UK was working on, including the RR jet engine design studio and Tube Alloys.

Game over.
Leaving aside the utter impossibility of arriving at this situation in the first place:


Where does the Reich get all this oil from? Because the Caucasus is easily in range of Allied air bases.
How does the Reich get access to all of the UK tech? Are we to assume the British make no effort, at least, to destroy whatever papers/designs they had? They simply hand everything over?
Where does Heisenberg get the necessary stuff needed to make the joke that was the Uranprojekt to churn out A-Bombs?
How does the Reich prevent Allied occupation of North Africa, and a subsequent push from there?
How does the Reich out-produce the US in terms of aircraft, to prevent a 'respectable air campaign'?


With all due respect, I find the notion that the Reich could effectively withstand the US and the remnant British Empire to be implausible, even giving them the British Isles and Russia for free.

Allied naval superiority will allow them to land in whatever peripheral point of their choosing, and starting in October '45, the Americans will be deploying 2-3 bombs per month, and there will be little the Luftwaffe could do to stop even a significant fraction of them.
 
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