Interesting AH ideas that aren't commonly used

McPherson

Banned
Apologies, wrong message quoted. Correction follows.

Africa isn't Qing China.

One could imagine Cixi realising that Co-Prosperity sphere is "inevitable" and neogciating the best terms she can to ally Japan

One sees Dowager Empress and Co-prosperity Sphere and Japan and what is one supposed to think? I kind of know that subject.

About Africa, your best ATL shot is either the Ghanan or Senegalese empires.
 
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One sees Dowager Empress and Co-prosperity Sphere and Japan and what is one supposed to think? I kind of know that subject.

I must admit I'm not sure of what you mean. Sorry, I lack experience of English.

If you mean it's very unlikely, Cixi was kinda the leader of China at several times during Chinese history, and there are many grey zones concerning her personnality, her political thoughts (like, we have diaries that could be her's but we don't know, we have anti-Cixi propaganda from Japan and Puyi's supporters like Kang the Fox. One thing we know for sure was that she was no dumb woman, and her realizing that the Japanese "Co-Prosperity sphere" (even though it doesn't have a full name, the political project is already there).

So, yeah, very implausible, that's probably why it's not commonly used, but that would be interesting without being too much on the ASB side. I mean, if a German protestant low-rank woman could become Empress of Russia OTL, I guess you can have another cup of weird WTFesque plot twist in this TL
 

McPherson

Banned
I must admit I'm not sure of what you mean. Sorry, I lack experience of English.

If you mean it's very unlikely, Cixi was kinda the leader of China at several times during Chinese history, and there are many grey zones concerning her personnality, her political thoughts (like, we have diaries that could be her's but we don't know, we have anti-Cixi propaganda from Japan and Puyi's supporters like Kang the Fox. One thing we know for sure was that she was no dumb woman, and her realizing that the Japanese "Co-Prosperity sphere" (even though it doesn't have a full name, the political project is already there).

So, yeah, very implausible, that's probably why it's not commonly used, but that would be interesting without being too much on the ASB side. I mean, if a German protestant low-rank woman could become Empress of Russia OTL, I guess you can have another cup of weird WTFesque plot twist in this TL

Japan is kind of dancing for her own life between 1848 and 1908. I doubt the Japanese putting out brushfires like the Edo Republic, beating off the French, fending off Chinese aggression (late 1870s), or facing down the pending Russian juggernaut, will be too concerned about negotiating with the Dowager Empress for something that even they think is not possible before WW I. Yikes, there is a lot of hubbub in east Asia at this time. If there is a window for Sino-Japanese alliance, it has to be during WW I right at the formation of the Chinese republic, before it disintegrates into the Warlordism era. Prior to that window, the Europeans, the xī fāng yě mán rén, are just too strong for either China or Japan to buck, alone or together.

And that carries it beyond the Dowager Empress, by calendar, I'm afraid.
 
And that carries it beyond the Dowager Empress, by calendar, I'm afraid.

So no alliance between the Empress ono which the Sun sets and the Emperor on which the Sun rises ... too bad.

Maybe trying to find a political agreement instead of the Chinese wars of the lat 70's ? I mean, after the Boxers Japanese didn't go easy on China either ... plus they would have a common threat, Russia, and a good synergy (China, full of resources and people, and Japan, more developped, they could have an industrial-era-Belgium dynamic, cities in one side, mines on the other side ...)
 

McPherson

Banned
So no alliance between the Empress ono which the Sun sets and the Emperor on which the Sun rises ... too bad.

Maybe trying to find a political agreement instead of the Chinese wars of the lat 70's ? I mean, after the Boxers Japanese didn't go easy on China either ... plus they would have a common threat, Russia, and a good synergy (China, full of resources and people, and Japan, more developped, they could have an industrial-era-Belgium dynamic, cities in one side, mines on the other side ...)

It might be possible, if the British allow it, and if the two nations start with the French, instead of the Russians or each other. Korea is the sticking point. Who gets it, was the reason the first Sino-Japanese War happens (1895). Being a sore point with me, is the Beiyang Fleet from that war. You see the USN was involved in a particular way for Japan and for China at the Battle of the Yalu River.

That USN experience will show up later in the Spanish American War.
 
It might be possible, if the British allow it, and if the two nations start with the French, instead of the Russians or each other. Korea is the sticking point. Who gets it, was the reason the first Sino-Japanese War happens (1895). Being a sore point with me, is the Beiyang Fleet from that war. You see the USN was involved in a particular way for Japan and for China at the Battle of the Yalu River.

That USN experience will show up later in the Spanish American War.

Interesting ... so no Sino-Japanese war means less experience for American naval advisors, and maybe a little more difficult war for the US against Spain ...

Could the French find some interests in invading bits of Korea ?
 

McPherson

Banned
Interesting ... so no Sino-Japanese war means less experience for American naval advisors, and maybe a little more difficult war for the US against Spain ...

Could the French find some interests in invading bits of Korea ?

Tough to do. French politics is kind of murky in the early 1890s when their Pacific venture is recalled, but in the 1870s, sure, why not? Got to get past the British, though. And the Americans and the Japanese and the Chinese... Indo-China was not going too well at the time (1870s is the start of a long headache.) and the Edo Republic had just backfired on the French in Japan. You should realize the USN was fighting the Koreans about that time?
 
You should realize the USN was fighting the Koreans about that time?

Okay, now I'm lost ... USN fighting the Koreans ? I mean, apparently, this battle created some new naval ideas of how to manage a "pre-dreadnought" ship ... I have basically zero naval knowledge, but what I understood was that the American experience gained by American advisors helped greatly during Spanish-
 

McPherson

Banned
Okay, now I'm lost ... USN fighting the Koreans ? I mean, apparently, this battle created some new naval ideas of how to manage a "pre-dreadnought" ship ... I have basically zero naval knowledge, but what I understood was that the American experience gained by American advisors helped greatly during Spanish-

There was Korean activity going on with American commercial ships during their layovers at Sasebo, Japan. One of these ships was the SS Sherman, which tried to open trade direct, she tried to forcibly open up trade with the Koreans by sailing there and violating their exclusion zone. She and they got into a shooting incident, which resulted in her destruction ~1866. The USN (ADM John Rogers) shows up at Ganghwa Island in 1871 asking where is our ship? The Japanese were in the middle of their own problems, so Rogers had a free hand and he sacked the place and then left. 1875, the USN shows up again. This time the Josean dynasty has the picture and it is 'Perry opens another Asian country to "free trade" all over again' (sarcasm). The Koreans were in a tough neighborhood smack in the middle of Japanese, Chinese, Russian, American imperialists and Murphy knows who else would come sailing by to shoot them up. Somebody was going to knock them over.
 
Technocracy as an ideological wing of the Democrats in the US. In much the same way as the Republicans have had a "libertarian" or neo-liberal wing pushing their policies further right, imagine a movement with a lot of ideological similarities to the OTL Technocracy, but which doesn't get caught up in Howard Scott's personality cult or millenialist "the price system will collapse soon...any day now." Rather, they try to become part of the Democratic Party and influence politics through New Deal and later Great Society programs. Technocrats don't necessarily have to make their way into the White House, but they'll be a vocal and possibly politically potent branch of the Democrats.

The first President of Poland after WWI was a man named Gabriel Narutowicz. He was assassinated shortly after taking office by a National Democrat convinced he was an agent of the Jews/Freemasons (on the latter, they had a point). What if he wasn't, though? If Narutowicz had been able to build a somewhat left-wing government in the Second Polish Republic, and generate a stable and functional democracy, Pilsudski would have no reason to launch his coup. Poland might have a functional democratic government through the 1930s. What then? What different foreign policy would a democratic Poland follow, and how would it interact with its neighbors?
 
I don't think I've seen a Martin Luther King Jr. lives TL - how far would he continue to influence the direction of civil rights and what influence his Poor People's Campaign and anti-war activism would have on a Nixon or Humphrey administration.
 
I don't think I've seen a Martin Luther King Jr. lives TL - how far would he continue to influence the direction of civil rights and what influence his Poor People's Campaign and anti-war activism would have on a Nixon or Humphrey administration.
There was an episode from the Boondocks where MLK instead went into a coma and then reawakened sometime before 9/11 and ends up being shunned by the mainstream for his pacifist beliefs (which is quite understandable considering the nature of 9/11 and its perpetrators), only to later help reignite the black community to continue fighting for more civil rights; all after saying to some partying folks, "will you ignorant niggas please shut the hell up!?" (that's a real line from the show btw, I'm just quoting it, so don't freak out over me typing it out). Oh and Oprah becomes POTUS by 2020, because reasons regarding black culture I guess; entertaining episode nevertheless.
 
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APRA coup succeded in imprisoning the cabinets before them being evacuated, Westerling (that Westerling, yes) become Indonesia power broker
 
Technocracy as an ideological wing of the Democrats in the US. In much the same way as the Republicans have had a "libertarian" or neo-liberal wing pushing their policies further right, imagine a movement with a lot of ideological similarities to the OTL Technocracy, but which doesn't get caught up in Howard Scott's personality cult or millenialist "the price system will collapse soon...any day now." Rather, they try to become part of the Democratic Party and influence politics through New Deal and later Great Society programs. Technocrats don't necessarily have to make their way into the White House, but they'll be a vocal and possibly politically potent branch of the Democrats. ...

To a great extent, depending on how deeply developed as an ideology you demand the "technocracy" must be, this is in fact OTL to a degree that might not be ideologically recognized in the Reagan era. Consider a guy like Robert A. Heinlein. Sometime during the 1950s his personal politics went rightward, but he actually ran as a Democrat for Congress in Southern California, and not just as any Democrat but one affiliated with the political movement Upton Sinclair's EPIC campaign for state Governor, nominally under the Democratic banner but a radically leftward turn of that party, founded--one that eventually achieved success in placing another candidate in the Governor's seat the next cycle. Is Heinlein not someone who fits the above profile pretty well? He was interested in making things work and had a somewhat engineering turn of mind. I think he was quite typical of many young US military officers, particularly in the Navy, in his time.

Consider all the various corporate factions that were more or less in line behind supporting the New Deal. Despite general depression, certain industries, notably aviation, advanced in the 1930s. The notion that the New Deal, en masse, was somehow inimical to capitalist industry as such is an ideological hobbyhorse. Certainly many members of the coalition were quite out and loud in their denunciation of capitalism as such, and in their hope to do it in by gradual socialization, but if you look at what FDR himself stood for you will find he was quite a conservative bastion against such things getting out of hand. The Social Security system he commissioned was particularly designed to hold the line ideologically against the notion that society collectively guarantees the good of all by directly doling out benefits; the complexity of the system linking individual payouts to lifetime earnings (which left quite a lot of people quite out in the cold) was purposefully meant to promote a role of government as insurer and broker but not benefactor. Indeed the system was immediately modified in Congress to be more socialistic (and of more benefit to more people, sooner than the pure system the President had designed to order would have). But this reflects one wing of the general movement.

Another would in fact be well described exactly as you have put it. Purified of ideology demanding the downfall of capitalism, replaced by a sleeves-rolled-up pragmatism that embraced Keynesian economics (itself another ideological firewall against pure mass socialism in favor of a top-down managerial approach). If we look past the enthusiastic rhetoric of the left wing of the New Deal, we see that real policy was quite cooperative with established private industry. Such liberals as Berle or Galbraith show us exactly this sort of mindset, the idea that tinkering and engineering fixes are sufficient to upgrade the basic machinery of a liberal democracy hosting largely still laissez-faire capitalism with some relatively small patches improving its stability and responsiveness and guaranteeing a wide enough distribution of collectively produced wealth to keep the commoners satisfied while their social betters take on the complex and esoteric tasks of running affairs most people simply do not understand and don't want to be burdened with having to. New Deal Technocracy was to the ideological Technocracy that called itself by that name as the Progressives of the early 20th Century were to such radicals as the People's Party AKA "Populists" and later Socialists. It seems to me that in the spirit of Technocracy particularly, one does not jettison and tear down largely functional social machinery to build a moderately more perfected version, when patching and modifying the existing machinery accomplishes the same goals well enough but without nearly as much opposition and doubt. So this is what real technocrats did--they went to work for corporations, or served in the government cooperatively with the corporations, and addressed themselves to patching things, winning themselves glowing resumes and being promoted to very high levels to do such similar work on a grand scale.

If one looks at American academia in the period between WWII and the election of Ronald Reagan, one finds a very similar mindset across the board in the social sciences. A few radicals, such as C. Wright Mills, existed, but by and large American scholars sought to analyze and recommend action in a very technocratic mindset. American foreign aid policy, as one branch of our general Cold War policy of containment, undertook a general theory of economic development that assumed all nations were essentially the same and that by managerial revisions of policy one could achieve "White Revolutions," as the Shah of Iran called his country's version, tinkering with some land reform here and investment policy there to overcome perceived cultural roadblocks to free up nations to develop just as the USA and successful European nations had. Such radicals as Noam Chomsky (who was moonlighting and quite political in critiquing such policies, being himself a linguist in terms of his scientific bailiwick; he acted in these writings as an engaged citizen with radical views consistent with the minor socialist party he belonged to) were quite withering in their attacks on the mindset. For good or ill, what can one call it but technocratic? All the key assumptions of technocracy were there.

To be sure by the 1960s this mindset was not the property of the Democratic Party. The Republicans out of necessity of survival absorbed it too, because to be somewhat technocratic was an essential survival skill in the complex global world the USA attempted to dominate as leader of the Western Bloc and champion of a way of life they held ought to win in the world at large.

To make it a specially Democratic position, not just in the period 1932-1948 or so, you'd have to postulate some special reason the Republicans would oppose it as a bloc. The thing is that before the various crises of the 1960s and '70s, relatively few people saw much of a downside to New Deal type pragmatism. Paleoconservatives would remain horrified at evolutions of central power, but such power being used against the general good of the common people as generally envisioned would not seem likely or reasonable to anticipate by most people. Hardcore leftists would naturally be suspicious of anything that legitimized capitalism instead of framing it as an implacable foe of the welfare of the majority, but such fears were hardly typical, and marked someone as a radical of the fringes, left or right hardly would seem to matter--either way, people without deep engagement in the hearts and minds of the majority. After the 1970s that had largely changed, in a process of numerous apparent hazards to general welfare and the complicity of the central powers of both state and private industry against that welfare seemed illustrated on many fronts.

So, there would be little reason for an anti-technocracy faction to have much traction until then, and then after that being a technocrat was much more of a liability. Why would the Republicans set themselves up to be fall guys ranting against progress and success in the golden years of the postwar era? Far better to appropriate technocratic means to more conservative ends.

So, pragmatic technocracy is not an ideological stance, though I daresay it does evolve its own ideological modifications of whatever larger ideological cause each faction of technocrats serve. It is more of a profession, that can serve any master.

Would you not recognize the mindset of the Kremlin after the death of Stalin as also very largely technocratic after all?

Technocracy is not an end, it is a means. As a means, it was indeed embraced by Democrats in their heyday of power and the mentality of the Johnson Administration can be viewed as its very apotheosis.
 

McPherson

Banned
To a great extent, depending on how deeply developed as an ideology you demand the "technocracy" must be, this is in fact OTL to a degree that might not be ideologically recognized in the Reagan era. Consider a guy like Robert A. Heinlein. Sometime during the 1950s his personal politics went rightward, but he actually ran as a Democrat for Congress in Southern California, and not just as any Democrat but one affiliated with the political movement Upton Sinclair's EPIC campaign for state Governor, nominally under the Democratic banner but a radically leftward turn of that party, founded--one that eventually achieved success in placing another candidate in the Governor's seat the next cycle. Is Heinlein not someone who fits the above profile pretty well? He was interested in making things work and had a somewhat engineering turn of mind. I think he was quite typical of many young US military officers, particularly in the Navy, in his time.

Perhaps someone has read this book?

Heinlein and Bernie Sanders would have seen eye to eye. Heinlein would have been eminently comfortable with Upton Sinclair, which is why he tried to run under that banner. IOW, Heinlein was a libertarian socialist. No, he was not typical of the USN, either, who were MOTR center right democrats. He had more in common with this guy.

His Starship Troopers was based on that Marine's opinions. Evans Carlson was a confirmed Maoist in applied "militarism".
 
Here's another idea that's little used and discussed not often; a "world" government/federation/superstate/something being created in the aftermath of some apocalyptic whatever (usually a third world war that for the sake of brevity never gets too nuclear for the sake of a possible reconstruction).

I know this um..."trope" is quite a stretch to accomplish, considering the obvious differences in cultures around the world (and resources involved), it is a feature in various sci-fi works including Gundam, Macross, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Star Trek, and of course the Psychotechnic League thanks to Pachipachis pointing that out to me (which is one loose inspiration for my TL even though I never read the book); oh and Metal Slug had that...sort of but well that's about all we know. Anyway, while it's not a new thing in fiction, I'm quite surprised that there isn't much TLs about a world something union being formed. I get that it might sound lame and boring that something "utopic" is achieved in the end after something like a WWIII happens, but the inner workings of a world nation fascinates me, especially when it comes to its culture and society (and of course the whole "nationalism vs. globalism" sentiments going on right now but I'm not touching that with a 99 and a 1/2 foot pole, no sir).
 
KuboCaskett wrote:
Here's another idea that's little used and discussed not often; a "world" government/federation/superstate/something being created in the aftermath of some apocalyptic whatever (usually a third world war that for the sake of brevity never gets too nuclear for the sake of a possible reconstruction).

I know this um..."trope" is quite a stretch to accomplish, considering the obvious differences in cultures around the world (and resources involved), it is a feature in various sci-fi works including Gundam, Macross, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Star Trek, and of course the Psychotechnic League thanks to Pachipachis pointing that out to me (which is one loose inspiration for my TL even though I never read the book); oh and Metal Slug had that...sort of but well that's about all we know. Anyway, while it's not a new thing in fiction, I'm quite surprised that there isn't much TLs about a world something union being formed. I get that it might sound lame and boring that something "utopic" is achieved in the end after something like a WWIII happens, but the inner workings of a world nation fascinates me, especially when it comes to its culture and society (and of course the whole "nationalism vs. globalism" sentiments going on right now but I'm not touching that with a 99 and a 1/2 foot pole, no sir).

Heh, it’s “AH” now but there’s the CoDominum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoDominium) which “technically” doesn’t fit the “aftermath” segment but I’ll point out I’ve dropped email to both authors noting “I” at least could see how such an arrangement might shake out given a “sword-of-Damocles” situation in the 60s. (My inspiration of course being a “what-if” Project Icarus type event: https://www.wired.com/2012/03/mit-saves-the-world-project-icarus-1967/) As a given the two ‘obvious’ Super-Powers are going to go to whatever lengths needed to ensure their pre-eminence post-event should any joint effort fail to actually prevent said event. And as likely in order to have attention to try and prevent said event they would take steps to ensure neither side takes advantage nor does any of the ‘lesser’ players. (Specifically China at this point is rather hostile to both sides and unlikely to be amiable to a status-quo-antebellum agreement if the main players attention is divided)

My main reason for pointing this out to the Authors was in fact because the dynamic is so unstable and unlikely that there is a lot of story opportunity and background to be built from such a start that I’d really like to read it. Especially once you are past the initial ‘conflict’ stage where you have a group or groups that actually ‘believe’ in the Super-State or at least are invested enough that it is at that point better to be “in” than “out” and how the efforts would be bent to achieve and maintain the current ‘stability’. And all the implied conflict and such is also confined to a single planet, (but given the impetus of the alliance one that is expanding as fast as possible as well) with limited ability to rapidly adapt to the change.

The authors are correct in their assessments of how things will generally work out, (both the US and USSR will become MORE authoritarian over time, they will have to, in order to maintain control and keep things as stable as possible. But the ‘key’ in the series was the development of interstellar travel which allowed them to ‘dump’ excess social and cultural pressure off-Earth and one wonders what would have been the history had that outlet not been available?

In the main I suspect some sort of ‘Unification’ (suppression really) wars would have been inevitable as the world is divided (willing or not) into spheres of influence and powerless ‘neutral’ nations but with a somewhat overplayed ‘death-from-above’ looming over everyone’s head and several decades of not having human Armageddon’ being the main fear I wonder if you would not get a more real stability despite the obvious misuses of power that would occur? Further you’d have several generations raised with the reality of ‘unity’ even if the closer to the top the less ‘real’ it becomes, which would or could lead to a more reality than real sense of human unity. (Historically, organized religion being the obvious example, the ‘actual’ reality may not matter to those in power but the collective reality will force certain decisions on them non-the-less. Especially if you don’t have a near-term ‘outlet’ such as an interstellar drive and shield.

You of course have a more advanced ‘Space’ presence but without a major means of up-mass lift, (fusion powered rockets is one way, chemical powered rockets are not) you won’t ever see a significant off-Earth migration. You'll see what we have imagined come to pass, possibly up to and including actual Space Colonies as we push out into the Solar System but the needed mass will require a substantial solar infrastructure which will take decades at best to produce and years more to become self sustaining.

Randy
 
don't forget the "citizen"/"taxpayer" status split ofc. that and the whole 70s SF-based future so the "citizens" get stuck eating "protocarb glop", and this is in the US nevermind the third world.
 
UK elections that are (or aren't) post war:

Attlee tries to keep running with a threadbare majority (or seeks Liberal support) in 1951 instead of a GE and manages to eek it out to 1955. Probably never see a second Churchill premiership.
Same with Wilson in 1966. (Does he win in Alt-1968/1969?)

Heath wins in 1974 (not often done - usually 1970 and Gordon Banks is the 'go to' election of the 70s to change).

Major throws in the towel and goes to the country in 1996.


All the above have knock on effects for the UK well down the line (as well as throwing out the known election years). The usual 'go to one' are Labour win 1970, October 1978 election, Labour wins in 1992 and October 2007 election.
 
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