Industrialized Minioans: Possible?

Let's say that the Minioans recover from th Thera erruption and continue expanding. They eventually expand to cover the entire Mediterranean with trading posts. Then, a king comes along and manages to unite a large portion of the colonies into an empire.

Some evidence of Minoan factories exists. Could the Minoan Empire make the leap into an industrialized society? If so how long would it take?
 
So... Many... Problems...

1) Even if they recover from the Thera eruption (which would take a LONG time, given the isolated nature of Crete at the time), what prevents the Mycenaeans from conquering them during that time as in OTL? How are potentially revived Minoan cities going to stand up to the coming of the Sea People?

2) It would make more sense for a king to unite all of Crete BEFORE going about building a vast colonial empire, rather than the reverse. And while these wars of unification are happening, the island is vulnerable to external assaults like those previously mentioned.

3) Define "factories". Did the Minoans have the technological expertise necessary for the level of mass production associated with industrialization, or are these "factories" merely artisanal guild houses?

4) Tech, tech, tech. The Minoans and other bronze age societies lack the level of mechanization necessary for practical industrialization. Development of this technology would take centuries, in which there's plenty of opportunity for interruption by invasion/internal disruptions. By the time it happens, the *Minoans may no longer even be recognizable to their forebears.
 
I'd say it would take 3500+ years.
Ya, and any civilization that lasts THAT long fossilizes, and wouldn't be able to produce an industrial revolution.

Unless, of course, you have a couple of civilization collapses and revivals - in which case someone else probably takes over, this not being China.
 
on the alt hist wiki there is a timeline where the Yuan Mayan and the Romans survive until the present day, this is the most accurate t.l I have seen concerning a long lasting nation

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/States_%28Superpowers%29
Hahaha, oh wait, you're serious, aren't you? Okay, sorry for the rudeness, but one glance at the page for the "Maya Conglomerate" is all it takes to know that that was just a very silly TL. An insultingly and offensively silly one.
 
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Hahaha, oh wait, you're serious, aren't you? Okay, sorry for the rudeness, but one glance at the page for the "Maya Conglomerate" is all it takes to know that that was just a very silly TL. An insultingly and offensively silly one.

well I said the "most accurate" out of all that I have seen...
that dosent even mean it's very realistic but its better than Minoa lasting for 3,500 years
 
well I said the "most accurate" out of all that I have seen...
that dosent even mean it's very realistic but its better than Minoa lasting for 3,500 years
Actually Minoa lasting for 3,500 would be far more realistic. The maker of that TL had no idea what he was doing and when making that Maya superpower was just throwing random words around that made no sense and the entire premise made no sense. So it's a Maya super power that colonized North America and Africa, but they don't even speak Mayan at all? Instead their primary language is something else entirely and their capital is a pre-Nahuatl Mexican city (not Maya either) and there's a myriad of other bizarre mistakes that would take forever to go into but I could list them all if I felt like it.
 
This forum can be so serendipidous sometimes; I was just thinking of stuff pertaining to the cultural myths surrounding Minoan-era Crete earlier today. Time to bust a few of them.

The first is that Minoan Crete was not a super advanced state; it was less advanced technologically than Mesopotamia, which had already had large cities and organised bureaucracies for about two millenia at this point. Arguably, the Anatolian cultures of this time were at least at the same level and probably more advanced as well. Cyprus was less advanced than many of its neighbour regions in this period but had started a palatial period as well, and strong civilizations also existed in Sardinia, Malta, the Balaerics, Sicily, Corsica, many of the Aegean Islands (in particular the Cyclades) and even Egypt of this period was probably on an equal footing with Crete.
The idea that Minoan Crete was advanced for its time partially comes from the fact that it was in Europe (even though that term is practically meaningless in the period) and more developed than most of its contemporaries in the rest of Europe, it was properly discovered before many of the other civilizations of the time were excavated, because of Arthur Evans portraying it as a peaceful matriarchal trading utopia and the reconstruction of Knossos giving it a visual image in people's heads, and because Greeks have claimed Minoan heritage for their own and make a big deal out of it.

Secondly, and related to the first point, the fall of Minoan Crete did not cause a regression in technology. Arguably, Mycanaean technology was more advanced than that of the Minoans, and elements of Minoan material culture were preserved after they had lost their independence long afterwards. The Minoans were not some strange super advanced civilization too good for this sinful earth(tm), the Mycanaeans took over their culture and vastly expanded its impact and reach. And the technologies that the Minoans developed were not lost; shipbuilding continued to be a major element of Mediterranean culture, international trade expanded, city planning and large palaces were abundant. And this attitude also talks like they somehow vanished without the rest of the world even noticing, when material evidence both in Crete and abroad demonstrates its incredibly strong trading links with the rest of the Mediterranean.

Thirdly, the Minoan civilization was not destroyed by Thera; there's a slight problem with that theory, which is the ash layer caused by the volcano is underneath the last strata showing complex palatial constructions. In other words, the last great Minoan palaces were built after the eruption and without too much trouble. The tsunami caused by the eruption caused coastal damage but barely penetrated the interior of the island. The destruction layer that seems to signal the end of Minoan independent culture on Crete is deliberate destruction, probably but not necessarily Mycanaeans are to blame for this. The chronology of Mediterranean cultures is a little confusing, as each identified culture tends to have its own period names, but there is a clear chronology for Minoan culture that exists and I advise you take a look at it; the end of Minoan culture is not at the hands of a volcano and its after effects.

Fourthly, the island of Crete doesn't have anywhere near enough resources for a country to develop industrial technologies; the island is capable of quite large agricultural production, and has good copper deposits, along with that most vital of ancient resources wood. With these things it was easy for it to produce ships, metal tools, buildings, material objects, and what it lacked it traded for. But it lacks iron, enough land to support industrial-sized populations, and most importantly it has absolutely no coal. You can make charcoal out of wood, but they needed the wood for shipbuilding; you can't sustain a developing industrial economy with the same resource required to give you enough foreign influence to allow you to attempt industrialising in the first place. Also, coal had almost no use in contemporary cultures, so they would have no way of acquiring it from foreign sources as no-one would even be aware of the existence of it.

Other things that make this idea completely impossible: the Bronze Age Collapse, the widespread breakdown of the Bronze Age political structures and trade links that is considered to be a result of economic collapse. This would have hit Minoan Crete incredibly hard: the fact that there are aggressive, far more powerful states in the region as Mycenae demonstrated fairly aptly: the fact that the island's own geography predisposes it to political division in a similar fashion to Greece: and last but not least, the fact that we know almost nothing about actual Minoan political structures and culture/s. This already makes reconstructing its OTL existence nigh impossible for people who have studied the island for years, let alone alternate history scenarios. I couldn't tell you if it was one state or several, one culture or several, how the Mycenaeans introduced themselves, whether they had a military of any kind, whether they were as powerful at sea as Thucydides thought a thousand years later.

To put it simply, this scenario isn't happening, though I hate to be the party pooper.
 
Ah, cool to have someone knowledgeable about early Bronze-Age Greece with us. I just got an Osprey book on the subject and have been interested in it for quite some time. And I'm actually surprised that the Minoans were not advanced compared to their contemporaries, as you say, I guess I've been corrupted by the popular myth. But would there be a way to have Minoan culture, or even Mycenaean for that matter, last longer, even to the point where there are some vestiges or traces even to this day as in China and India which have a rather sterling record of cultural continuity?
 
1) Even if they recover from the Thera eruption (which would take a LONG time, given the isolated nature of Crete at the time), what prevents the Mycenaeans from conquering them during that time as in OTL? How are potentially revived Minoan cities going to stand up to the coming of the Sea People?

2) It would make more sense for a king to unite all of Crete BEFORE going about building a vast colonial empire, rather than the reverse. And while these wars of unification are happening, the island is vulnerable to external assaults like those previously mentioned.

They probably did recover from the Thera eruption. The weight of evidence these days is that the eruption occurred in the 1620s BC, and the Minoans weren't conquered until a couple of centuries later. The eruption would have devastated the coast and reduced the crop yields for a few years but left the interior largely intact - a big deal for a seafaring civilization, certainly, but not a fatal blow.

And for a maritime people like the Minoans, overseas colonial expansion makes sense - it's easier to set up a colony on Rhodes (as one or another of the Minoan polities in fact did) than to march an army through rugged Cretan country to conquer a rival city-state. Water is a highway to a seafaring people, not a barrier.

Industrialization, though... yeesh. In addition to the factors Daeres mentions, there simply weren't enough Minoans - Crete isn't a country with a high carrying capacity at Bronze Age tech levels, and most population estimates I've seen were under 500,000 for the entire island during this period. Compared to Egypt or the larger Near Eastern empires, Minoan Crete didn't have the labor pool or infrastructure to become an industrial powerhouse even if we were to somehow handwave the technology (which they didn't have) and the mindset (ditto - to them, wealth was synonymous with trade).

And the Bronze Age collapse would have hit them hard - their wealth came almost entirely from the sea-trade network, and that was the first thing to go.

The first is that Minoan Crete was not a super advanced state; it was less advanced technologically than Mesopotamia, which had already had large cities and organised bureaucracies for about two millenia at this point. Arguably, the Anatolian cultures of this time were at least at the same level and probably more advanced as well. Cyprus was less advanced than many of its neighbour regions in this period but had started a palatial period as well, and strong civilizations also existed in Sardinia, Malta, the Balaerics, Sicily, Corsica, many of the Aegean Islands (in particular the Cyclades) and even Egypt of this period was probably on an equal footing with Crete.

The idea that Minoan Crete was advanced for its time partially comes from the fact that it was in Europe (even though that term is practically meaningless in the period) and more developed than most of its contemporaries in the rest of Europe, it was properly discovered before many of the other civilizations of the time were excavated, because of Arthur Evans portraying it as a peaceful matriarchal trading utopia and the reconstruction of Knossos giving it a visual image in people's heads, and because Greeks have claimed Minoan heritage for their own and make a big deal out of it.

Secondly, and related to the first point, the fall of Minoan Crete did not cause a regression in technology. Arguably, Mycanaean technology was more advanced than that of the Minoans, and elements of Minoan material culture were preserved after they had lost their independence long afterwards. The Minoans were not some strange super advanced civilization too good for this sinful earth(tm), the Mycanaeans took over their culture and vastly expanded its impact and reach. And the technologies that the Minoans developed were not lost; shipbuilding continued to be a major element of Mediterranean culture, international trade expanded, city planning and large palaces were abundant. And this attitude also talks like they somehow vanished without the rest of the world even noticing, when material evidence both in Crete and abroad demonstrates its incredibly strong trading links with the rest of the Mediterranean.

I'll agree with the above as far as social organization goes. The Minoans didn't invent the Bronze Age palace economy, and there's no evidence that they were any better at it than the Near Eastern or Anatolian civilizations. They were probably less literate than Egypt or the Near East. They also don't seem to have developed governmental structures beyond the city-state or small kingdom level, although that may be as much a feature of Crete's terrain and the Minoans' maritime focus as anything else. And while the status of women in Minoan Crete was obviously high, it certainly wasn't a "peaceful matriarchal utopia," and women had comparably high status in certain other contemporary societies such as Egypt.

Materially, though, they do seem to have been better off in at least some respects. Hypocausts and sewers, for instance, weren't widely seen elsewhere at that time, and don't appear to have been used again for a considerable time. They also seem to have had higher living standards and there's at least some evidence of a resulting increase in life expectancy - part of that is because they got very rich off the carrying trade and the wealth was split among a relatively small population, but the very fact that they were able to dominate the sea trade for so long suggests that their shipbuilding was better than their contemporaries'. Of course, by the 1500s or 1400s BC, others like the Mycenaeans caught up with them and even surpassed them, but I think it would be fair to describe at least the Middle Minoans (ca. 1900-1600 BC) as advanced for their time.
 
Ah, cool to have someone knowledgeable about early Bronze-Age Greece with us. I just got an Osprey book on the subject and have been interested in it for quite some time. And I'm actually surprised that the Minoans were not advanced compared to their contemporaries, as you say, I guess I've been corrupted by the popular myth. But would there be a way to have Minoan culture, or even Mycenaean for that matter, last longer, even to the point where there are some vestiges or traces even to this day as in China and India which have a rather sterling record of cultural continuity?

Well, an argument could be made that the Minoans and Mycanaeans did manage it, if you take the line of Minoans into Mycanaeans into Ancient Greeks into Roman Greeks into Ottoman Greeks into Modern Greeks. At the very least, some of the Ancient Greeks were related to Mycenaeans, which is why we can read Linear B; it's an early form of Greek.

There were traces of Minoan culture still around in the Classical and Hellenistic Era, at least there was a recognition by the Greeks of the time that some of the Cretans predated them and belonged to an older civilization. Crete was fairly chaotic even by Greek standards, it was referred to as the island of a hundred cities, or more accurately a hundred poleis; given that means at least a hundred independent communities, yeesh!

The problem for the Minoans (and the reason that they have been thought of as pacifists/really nice) is that their art has no depictions of warriors or warfare, and there is little to no evidence of weaponry from their sites. What is certainly true is that the palaces were not fortified. I think going for a China and India on such a relatively tiny island is hard, because mainland civilizations will always end up outnumbering them. The last Mediterranean island to have its ancient natives as a potent power was Sardinia I believe; the native Sards proved impossible for the Carthaginians to dislodge from the central regions of the island, and it took the Romans at least a hundred years to do it. It seems that it wasn't possible for any of the Mediterranean Islands to stay independent in the long run, sadly.

Oddly enough, if the Minoans hadn't been as developed as they were then they would have been more secure; I think they drew attention, to compare it to Cyprus who was not so central to trade or developed and who had little attention paid to it until the creation of the first Empire by the Assyrians. Perhaps a weaker Mycenae or one that chooses not to conquer Crete would allow for the Minoans to become absorbed by an Empire but with their culture intact, which would extend their cultural lifetime considerably. Alternatively, have the Minoans remain independent until the Bronze Age Collapse; in that particular mess, all bets are off as to what would emerge afterwards. The second scenario would end up with a successor culture to the Minoans at least similar to 'Ancient Greeks compared to Mycenae'. That's quite a fun idea for a timeline actually.
 
They probably did recover from the Thera eruption. The weight of evidence these days is that the eruption occurred in the 1620s BC, and the Minoans weren't conquered until a couple of centuries later. The eruption would have devastated the coast and reduced the crop yields for a few years but left the interior largely intact - a big deal for a seafaring civilization, certainly, but not a fatal blow.

And for a maritime people like the Minoans, overseas colonial expansion makes sense - it's easier to set up a colony on Rhodes (as one or another of the Minoan polities in fact did) than to march an army through rugged Cretan country to conquer a rival city-state. Water is a highway to a seafaring people, not a barrier.

Industrialization, though... yeesh. In addition to the factors Daeres mentions, there simply weren't enough Minoans - Crete isn't a country with a high carrying capacity at Bronze Age tech levels, and most population estimates I've seen were under 500,000 for the entire island during this period. Compared to Egypt or the larger Near Eastern empires, Minoan Crete didn't have the labor pool or infrastructure to become an industrial powerhouse even if we were to somehow handwave the technology (which they didn't have) and the mindset (ditto - to them, wealth was synonymous with trade).

And the Bronze Age collapse would have hit them hard - their wealth came almost entirely from the sea-trade network, and that was the first thing to go.



I'll agree with the above as far as social organization goes. The Minoans didn't invent the Bronze Age palace economy, and there's no evidence that they were any better at it than the Near Eastern or Anatolian civilizations. They were probably less literate than Egypt or the Near East. They also don't seem to have developed governmental structures beyond the city-state or small kingdom level, although that may be as much a feature of Crete's terrain and the Minoans' maritime focus as anything else. And while the status of women in Minoan Crete was obviously high, it certainly wasn't a "peaceful matriarchal utopia," and women had comparably high status in certain other contemporary societies such as Egypt.

Materially, though, they do seem to have been better off in at least some respects. Hypocausts and sewers, for instance, weren't widely seen elsewhere at that time, and don't appear to have been used again for a considerable time. They also seem to have had higher living standards and there's at least some evidence of a resulting increase in life expectancy - part of that is because they got very rich off the carrying trade and the wealth was split among a relatively small population, but the very fact that they were able to dominate the sea trade for so long suggests that their shipbuilding was better than their contemporaries'. Of course, by the 1500s or 1400s BC, others like the Mycenaeans caught up with them and even surpassed them, but I think it would be fair to describe at least the Middle Minoans (ca. 1900-1600 BC) as advanced for their time.

I'd agree that it's likely that their shipbuilding was pretty good, though I'd say there's an equal chance that they developed better social structures relating to trade and that's why they dominated so quickly. We don't have any Minoan ships to look at, only pictures of them. But yeah, I'd agree with what you said about their technology, it's just that it seems most people think their advancement compared to other civilizations was extreme and that was what I was mostly concerned at dismissing. As ever, different civilizations were better at different things. Literacy was at a more advanced state in the Near East and Egypt, Astronomy was certainly more advanced in Sumeria and Akkadia along with Mathematics, monumental constructions had been achieved in Malta millenia before (those Maltan temples are weeeeird). I want people here to see the Minoans as a member of a group of peers at relatively similar levels of development across the Mediterranean/Near East, not as a single example of civilization in a world of savages.
 
I thought there were depictions of warriors and possibly warfare on the frescoes of Akrotiri? And if I'm not mistaken pre-Mycenaean swords and other weapons and armor have been found on Crete as well. I've also seen articles about what may be walls being found at Minoan settlements as well, though I don't think around the palaces. In any case, didn't the Dorian invasion and subsequent dark age alter Mycenaean culture quite a bit?
 
Alternatively, have the Minoans remain independent until the Bronze Age Collapse; in that particular mess, all bets are off as to what would emerge afterwards. The second scenario would end up with a successor culture to the Minoans at least similar to 'Ancient Greeks compared to Mycenae'. That's quite a fun idea for a timeline actually.

Hmmm, maybe the Minoans become part of the Sea People migration during the collapse and end up taking the place of the Philistines? Or maybe, before the collapse, they establish daughter colonies in the western Med - near OTL Carthage, for instance, or even Sicily or Iberia - and one of them survives as a recognizably Minoan-descended culture? There was tin in Iberia, so they'd have a reason to set up a trading colony there.
 
They probably did recover from the Thera eruption. The weight of evidence these days is that the eruption occurred in the 1620s BC, and the Minoans weren't conquered until a couple of centuries later. The eruption would have devastated the coast and reduced the crop yields for a few years but left the interior largely intact - a big deal for a seafaring civilization, certainly, but not a fatal blow.

... It's easier to set up a colony on Rhodes (as one or another of the Minoan polities in fact did) than to march an army through rugged Cretan country to conquer a rival city-state...

I never meant to suggest that the Thera eruption ended the Minoan civilization right there and then... It certainly didn't. I'm merely stating that after that event the Minoans were never quite able to "recover", as in "return fully to their former glory", much less cohere and industrialize of all things.

And my point about unification was meant to address the population issue that you mentioned. A united Minoan polity with multiple urban centres answering to a single central authority strikes me as a somewhat better position from which to start industrialization (if we ignore the myriad of other factors pitted against them, of course) than a far-flung, decentralized colonial empire ruled by various feuding statelets.

... I want people here to see the Minoans as a member of a group of peers at relatively similar levels of development across the Mediterranean/Near East, not as a single example of civilization in a world of savages.

I wasn't even aware there were people who insist on romanticizing the Minoans in such an absurd way! (Except for maybe Gavin Menzies and his latest load of dreck...)
 
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