Industrialization without Westernization

Is it possible for a country to industrialize in the 19th century without adopting Western culture in terms of dress or government. Like say China industrializes it's military and general technology ,but people still dress in traditional Chinese fashion. Like the military commanders still dress as they did ,and don't embrace European style uniforms like the Japanese did. Would they also be able to keep the imperial dynasty if they industrialize, instead of becoming a Republic.
 
The Chinese being a republic since 1911 is different than their modernisation, since a lot has to do with resentment toward the Qing that wouldn't necessarily exist under an ethnically Han dynasty, be it the Shun or whoever won after the fall of the Ming. So much of industrialisation and modernisation is based on Europe's example--look at Thailand and Madagascar's example for modernisation attempts.

I think a good POD for that might be continued Japanese expansionism, like Hideyoshi's conflicts in Korea and his plans for Taiwan and Luzon. I don't know if a Toyotomi shogunate would necessarily lead to this, but any way to shape the Japanese way of thought as looking outward could lead to this (Mongols, Kenmu Restoration, etc.). If China and Japan end up like the French and British in Europe, then I'd assume they'd end up "joining" the Western world, since the competition would make them adopt what was best. And at times, they'd be the ones innovating. Such as the fact that the late Sengoku era had Japan becoming one of the main manufacturers of muskets-the "Tanegashima" (or hinawajuu) is one of the major designs of matchlocks, and Japan made a ton of them. And China is capable of the same thing, and I believe the Ming/early Qing did similar things which hints to their capability. If Japan and China end up as bitter rivals, then that creates a lot of competition. Taiwan and the Philippines might be areas of conflict, and also Siberia and most exotically the West Coast of the Americas, where they'd come into conflict with Spain but also be able to absorb more Spanish influences as Japan historically did. Korea is another flashpoint, since geopolitically, Korea resembles 19th century Belgium and might change it's allegiance between China and Japan as circumstances require but as Belgium did, itself be a center of innovation. Industrialism-wise, Korea is wealthy in resources, and going back to the Belgium comparison, Belgium was the second country to industrialise after Britain.

In short, it's definitely possible.
 
Is it possible for a country to industrialize in the 19th century without adopting Western culture in terms of dress or government. Like say China industrializes it's military and general technology ,but people still dress in traditional Chinese fashion. Like the military commanders still dress as they did ,and don't embrace European style uniforms like the Japanese did. Would they also be able to keep the imperial dynasty if they industrialize, instead of becoming a Republic.

Just a thought: Didn't western dress code change with the Industrial revolution? Do European generals from the 19th century dress like a general from the 17th century?
 

fi11222

Banned
Is it possible for a country to industrialize in the 19th century without adopting Western culture in terms of dress or government. Like say China industrializes it's military and general technology ,but people still dress in traditional Chinese fashion. Like the military commanders still dress as they did ,and don't embrace European style uniforms like the Japanese did. Would they also be able to keep the imperial dynasty if they industrialize, instead of becoming a Republic.
I do not believe it is possible. Industrialization in the XIXth century involved more than just adopting technologies. It was whole organizational models that were being imported, including accounting, HR management, legal frameworks, etc. The countries importing these ready-made models did not know (and indeed nobody knew) which of their component parts were essential and which were not. So adopting everything wholesale, including dress, was the only realistic option.

If you want to adopt something piecemeal, you need a lot of time for trial and error. But if you wait in this way, you risk being beaten to the punch, with disastrous consequences, by some other power. This is what Japan understood and China did not.
 
The only way that I can imagine is a simultaneous industrialization elsewhere besides Europe. China and India could be an option, yet I don't know if the socioeconomic conditions would have made it possible.
 

WhoMadeWho

Banned
I think the salient features of westernization are inextricably linked with industrialization.

What I mean by that is that no matter what society industrializes first, be it China or Britain or the Incas, they will develop the hallmarks of western culture as a matter of course.
 
OTL Thailand was pretty westernised, at least on the surface.

I think you have to look below the surface. The external trappings are going to be Western but the Thais actually have a very different vibe. I really noticed the difference escaping colonisation has had on Thai culture as opposed to a lot of other Asian cultures. (Speaking as a Singaporean Indian)
 
I think you have to look below the surface. The external trappings are going to be Western but the Thais actually have a very different vibe. I really noticed the difference escaping colonisation has had on Thai culture as opposed to a lot of other Asian cultures. (Speaking as a Singaporean Indian)
Interesting, I would have expected the opposite(that the external trappings would be more distinct but that there would be a convergence below the surface). Could we please have some examples?

I wonder if the same is true if you compare Ethiopia to the various other African states, though I' m not sure this forum has anybody who's visited Ethiopia.
 
Interesting, I would have expected the opposite(that the external trappings would be more distinct but that there would be a convergence below the surface). Could we please have some examples?

I wonder if the same is true if you compare Ethiopia to the various other African states, though I' m not sure this forum has anybody who's visited Ethiopia.
Ethiopia did experience colonization, albeit briefly.
 
Ethiopia did experience colonization, albeit briefly.
Aye, but I doubt it was would have brought about much Italianization, surface or otherwise, given that it only lasted about half a decade and the indigneous elite retook power immediately after. I speaking from a position of ignorance here, so maybe the Italians did radically affect the culture during their brief occupation, but I'd be surprised.
 
Aye, but I doubt it was would have brought about much Italianization, surface or otherwise, given that it only lasted about half a decade and the indigneous elite retook power immediately after. I speaking from a position of ignorance here, so maybe the Italians did radically affect the culture during their brief occupation, but I'd be surprised.

I think they didn't. That is probably part of why the rift between Ethiopia and Eritrea proved insurmontable soon thereafter. Italy certainly left a mark, but in terms of culture that's probably more about the preceding decades of elite acculturation than the actual colonization phase.
In terms of language, for instance, Italian has little use or teaching in ethiopia historically, as opposed to Eritrea and Somalia where it had more impact (still nothing comparable to the penetration of French, but that is also because the Horn has "national" languages of prestige and old literacy, unlike many parts of West Africa for example).
Also consider that many Ethiopians regard, somewhat incorrectly, as having been "colonized" by the Amharas earlier and longer (and that is why the Ethiopian alphasyllabary superseded both Latin script (brought by missionaries) and whatever little literacy existed in Arabic script for languages like Harari and Oromo.
Ethiopia is culturally very diverse.
 
Interesting, I would have expected the opposite(that the external trappings would be more distinct but that there would be a convergence below the surface). Could we please have some examples?

I wonder if the same is true if you compare Ethiopia to the various other African states, though I' m not sure this forum has anybody who's visited Ethiopia.

I'll think about it and try to answer. I was in Bangkok a few weeks back and I just could really feel the cultural legacy of not having been colonised. The Thais don't have a postcolonial cringe for one thing.
 
On the face of it, industrialization is the standardization of parts, and maybe about a half dozen other things.

Doesn't seem like it would have to change the culture that much.
 
To steal an analogy used by a Korean political scientist whose name escapes me at the moment, while East Asia has adopted much of the hardware of Westernization (Western political systems, for example), the software remains decidedly non-Western. I think this is true in most of the world, too. While colonization and globalization have led to the spread and proliferation of surface-level Westernization, the souls of our nations remain intact. The strong ties we have to our families, friends, communities, soil, and nations are much harder to break, and as long as those remain unbroken, the imperialists haven't won.
 

SRBO

Banned
Is it possible for a country to industrialize in the 19th century without adopting Western culture in terms of dress or government. Like say China industrializes it's military and general technology ,but people still dress in traditional Chinese fashion. Like the military commanders still dress as they did ,and don't embrace European style uniforms like the Japanese did. Would they also be able to keep the imperial dynasty if they industrialize, instead of becoming a Republic.

It isn't mandatory, western clothing was adopted simply because it was simple but practical due to new materials and techniques available
 
Interesting. I'm also keen to learn more.

It's very hard to describe to someone, unless they're also from a culture which has been colonised.

Basically every other Asian culture (except perhaps the Japanese if you don't count the postwar occupation) has been colonised (the Chinese weren't officially but they suffered a hell of a lot from Imperialism anyhow). In our attitudes, in our popular culture there's always on some level some sort of comparison to the West (whether in rejection or in self-conscious imitation). The Thais don't have that.
 
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