Industrial Revolution in the Ottoman Empire

What would the effects of an Industrial Revolution in the Ottoman Empire be?

How could this happen?
 
At what point? It could be feasible in the early days yet later on the government and the military had enormous powers and most private industry was kept in a sort of protection racket by the Janissaries. Until they got blown way and after that commerce fell prey to westerners.

I'd say some point in the early 17th century would be the best time. You'd need precision measurements etc. yet this could be feasible if the Ottoman army continually invested in cannons like it had prevously (see the Siege of Constantinople).
However, the issue of coal is a troubling one. I don' tknow about coal deposits in Turkey itself, I think there's some in Egypt and in Bulgaria, but I do know that there's coal in the Caucasus and the Ukraine, which was indirectly Ottoman. Maybe increased Ottoman control of the southern Steppe.

Oil could be used, howeve,r although fractional distillaton of crude oil would be needed. They controlled Mesopotamia and the Black Sea so supply's not an issue.

The real issue, once again, is governance. The Ottoman ruling elites were migrating, pastoral Turk swho cared little for organised commerce (please don't bite my head off over that one) and so they took little care of private entrepreneurship.

That's my two cents.
 
I do know that there's coal in the Caucasus and the Ukraine, which was indirectly Ottoman. Maybe increased Ottoman control of the southern Steppe.

The Russians didn't manage to get production start up properly until the last 19th c. even with foreign investment and massive government effort. And it wasn't peripheral territory for them.

Not impossible, but certainly very difficult.

As for "Pastoral Turk Elites" - what, in the 1700s?
 
I am not sure when but basically before or at least very close to the time when Britain had theirs.

What about an Oil driven industrial revolution. Baku being extremely important and of course the rest of the middle east, there would be no problem with supply.

How early could an Oil industry arise?
 

wormyguy

Banned
An industrial revolution would require the development of a sophisticated merchant-capitalist system, which would presumably require rather early economic and cultural PODs. It might not even be possible, given that the first true merchant-capitalist systems were created by the nations which enriched themselves by breaking the Ottoman monopoly on the Far Eastern spice trade.
 
The Ottoman empire lacks the power sources that fueled the early industrial revolution in Northern Europe - namely fast flowing and constant streams for hydropower, easily burnable forests and easily accessible coal deposits. So I don't really see it taking off very well (at least in the same form as the European IR).

Oil is ready available, but the problem is that the engines to utilize oil to produce power, and the chemistry to process it were very much products of the Industrial Revolution elsewhere - they are not something you can start off using. The pre-1850s oil extraction was for burning it to produce light, its far too dirty and in much lower amounts than the high temperature coals. Its not for nothing we still use Coal over Oil to make power plants run. The Anatolia coals whilst present, are pretty darn deep down.

Past the resource problem you also have the transport and population problems. The Ottoman lands had much more dispersed people making industry hard to start and infrastructure less likely to turn a profit, and all hydrocarbon and other resources are quite far from the population centers and from the sea (again see Britain who built cities directly over the coal deposits to save the huge cost of early transport). Sure Baku might have a lot of oil, but even if you have a oil using industry set up getting that huge quantity over the mountains to Istanbul will be expensive.

I think to have this work you'll need very early changes to both the incentives and lands controlled by the Empire. If say the Ukrainian steppes remain Tatar and are properly integrated, thus giving the Turks the Donets basin and pre-existing patterns of bulk goods transport, or if you see some effect that causes even greater population density in the lower Danube valley.
 
For an industrial revolution, you need certain things.

1. Technology. Can be imported, can be domestic.
2. Capital investment. Can be private, can be government. Decentralised capital in hands of people without land works the best. In all cases where a landed elite controls the government and the capital, industry is slow and sluggish. Compare eastern Germany to western Germany in the 1800s, Russia in the 1800s, Hungary compared to Austria and Bohemia-Moravia in the late 1800s. Compare Russia overall.
3. Markets. Either you need access to the world market or you need a population that makes a surplus of currency. Both works best, but either works too.
4. Infrastructure. You need some kind of infrastructure to get raw materials to your factories and products to your buyers, and all steps in between. Rivers and canals work well, roads too, but railroads are the best.
5. Workforce. You need a strata of people that cannot support themselves on the countryside anymore and are thus willing to work in industry. The countryside must still be able to produce the food to support itself and this strata of people, or you must have access to the world markets to buy food.

When all these factors combine, you get an instant industrial revolution. It is hard to force it through if you lack some, but it is possible. Arrange for these factors and you have a nice Ottoman industrial revolution.
 
The Ottoman empire lacks the power sources that fueled the early industrial revolution in Northern Europe - namely fast flowing and constant streams for hydropower, easily burnable forests and easily accessible coal deposits. So I don't really see it taking off very well (at least in the same form as the European IR).
What about a Balkans-based boom in industry? I was under the impression that Bosnia has a considerable amount of coal buried not too far underground, and reachable with 19th-century technology. Forget about Anatolia, the Ottomans had plenty of other regions to tap into for the necessary resources.
 
Yes Bosnia has a large amount of coal - lignite coal. The brown stuff is really only suitable for electricity generation in the third stage of industrialising. For steel and other manufacturing, rail, and early energy generation you want hard or bituminous coal which Bosnia has only a tiny amount.

Additionally the Balkan mountains are pretty formidable: it'd be hard to move bulk goods in or out without rail (which you can obviously only get after you've had an industrial revolution).
 
I think it would be quite probable, that in an industrialized Ottoman Empire, Bulgaria will be the cradle of its industry. Bulgaria has iron, timber, and bituminous coal and its close enough to capital and administration of a presumably wealthier Constantinople.
 
The Ottoman empire lacks the power sources that fueled the early industrial revolution in Northern Europe - namely fast flowing and constant streams for hydropower, easily burnable forests and easily accessible coal deposits. So I don't really see it taking off very well (at least in the same form as the European IR).

Oil is ready available, but the problem is that the engines to utilize oil to produce power, and the chemistry to process it were very much products of the Industrial Revolution elsewhere - they are not something you can start off using. The pre-1850s oil extraction was for burning it to produce light, its far too dirty and in much lower amounts than the high temperature coals. Its not for nothing we still use Coal over Oil to make power plants run. The Anatolia coals whilst present, are pretty darn deep down.

Past the resource problem you also have the transport and population problems. The Ottoman lands had much more dispersed people making industry hard to start and infrastructure less likely to turn a profit, and all hydrocarbon and other resources are quite far from the population centers and from the sea (again see Britain who built cities directly over the coal deposits to save the huge cost of early transport). Sure Baku might have a lot of oil, but even if you have a oil using industry set up getting that huge quantity over the mountains to Istanbul will be expensive.

I think to have this work you'll need very early changes to both the incentives and lands controlled by the Empire. If say the Ukrainian steppes remain Tatar and are properly integrated, thus giving the Turks the Donets basin and pre-existing patterns of bulk goods transport, or if you see some effect that causes even greater population density in the lower Danube valley.

Largely agree. The Ottoman Empire actually had plenty of amazing hydropower, but it was really unfortunately located. It's not usable until power transmission becomes available. Small-scale hydropower could be and was used to power industrial plants.

Coal is actually usable - the late Ottoman Empire's production was equal to Italy's, which is not super-impressive, but that was sans-Bosnia. The main deposits were at Zonguldak, which is a short distance from Istanbul; in OTL by sea, but a rail line was planned (due to the advent of the Republic, the rail line connected it to Ankara, thus largely useless. More evidence republics suck.)

Bulgaria was in a proto-industrial state when it was lost (the destruction of urban life in post-Ottoman Bulgaria ended that) and could have become the basis for the development of light industry on a fairly large scale. Bosnia, one reached by rail, is probably the best potential source for serious industry. Large amounts of coal, huge forests, and lots and lots of iron.

The Capitulations/Trade treaties were also a big problem, but that's too complex to discuss briefly; but in short, tariffs were set by treaty (in 1900 at 8% for imports, 1% for exports) meaning nascent industries couldn't be protected, and foreigners were exempt from most Ottoman taxes, which made it nearly impossible for indigenous industries to compete.

You'd need a major European war some time after 1895 or (when the massive Victorian Depression is ending) to allow the Ottomans to discard the Capitulations in order to see industrial development. Because of low population densities, it's never going to be impressive or even really possible outside the Marmara area, Western Anatolia, and the Balkans.

There's little or no chance of an industrial revolution early on.
 
Last edited:
Yes Bosnia has a large amount of coal - lignite coal. The brown stuff is really only suitable for electricity generation in the third stage of industrialising. For steel and other manufacturing, rail, and early energy generation you want hard or bituminous coal which Bosnia has only a tiny amount.

Additionally the Balkan mountains are pretty formidable: it'd be hard to move bulk goods in or out without rail (which you can obviously only get after you've had an industrial revolution).

Charcoal is good for steel - plenty of that in Bosnia. Also, Bosnian lignite was of unusually high quality with a carbon content as high as 55%, not useless for industrial applications. Bosnia also has really good hydroelectric potential.

Again though, none of this useable at all until railways, and unless there's some source of indigenous capital, you're not going to find a lot of investors until the main European and American networks are built.

In short, no Ottoman industrial revolution until around the turn of the 20th c. You could have lighter industries related to food-processing & textiles a little bit earlier, but that's about it.
 
At what point? It could be feasible in the early days yet later on the government and the military had enormous powers and most private industry was kept in a sort of protection racket by the Janissaries. Until they got blown way and after that commerce fell prey to westerners.

I'd say some point in the early 17th century would be the best time. You'd need precision measurements etc. yet this could be feasible if the Ottoman army continually invested in cannons like it had prevously (see the Siege of Constantinople).
However, the issue of coal is a troubling one. I don' tknow about coal deposits in Turkey itself, I think there's some in Egypt and in Bulgaria, but I do know that there's coal in the Caucasus and the Ukraine, which was indirectly Ottoman. Maybe increased Ottoman control of the southern Steppe.

Oil could be used, howeve,r although fractional distillaton of crude oil would be needed. They controlled Mesopotamia and the Black Sea so supply's not an issue.

The real issue, once again, is governance. The Ottoman ruling elites were migrating, pastoral Turk swho cared little for organised commerce (please don't bite my head off over that one) and so they took little care of private entrepreneurship.

That's my two cents.

I agree with most of this, but the last paragraph is utter nonsense. The Ottoman elites weren't pastoral - this is a ridiculous assertion. And they did care for commerce, but it wasn't the highest priority of the State. The real issue is NOT governance, it's the dispersed nature of the population and the horrendous terrain of the empire, with no access to industrial resources until after the development of rail.
 
Largely agree. The Ottoman Empire actually had plenty of amazing hydropower, but it was really unfortunately located. It's not usable until power transmission becomes available. Small-scale hydropower could be and was used to power industrial plants.

This paragraph made me think, Tesla could have fixed that problem. While born in Croatia, could events potentially conspire to get him into the Ottoman Empire?
 
This paragraph made me think, Tesla could have fixed that problem. While born in Croatia, could events potentially conspire to get him into the Ottoman Empire?

Nice idea, that would be cool even if it isn't the fantasy Tesla that can build death rays and free energy machines.

It seems like an early steam and mill, industrial revolution isn't plausible. But what about the turn of the century? What are the POD's that would advance an industrial revolution using electricity and oil?

I think that if the Ottoman empire still had the oil of Baku and the coal of Ukraine that would be beneficial. Another example is the Romanian oil fields which were some of the first and most productive.
 
Nice idea, that would be cool even if it isn't the fantasy Tesla that can build death rays and free energy machines.

It seems like an early steam and mill, industrial revolution isn't plausible. But what about the turn of the century? What are the POD's that would advance an industrial revolution using electricity and oil?

I think that if the Ottoman empire still had the oil of Baku and the coal of Ukraine that would be beneficial. Another example is the Romanian oil fields which were some of the first and most productive.

Turkey began industrializing in the 1930s, and that was after having lost the business expertise of the Greeks and Armenians. The real problem was the tariff treaties and Capitulations. Once those are gone you're good to go.

Even with the rump empire left in 1914, WWI would have allowed the beginning of industrialization (if they had stayed out). If you want to move back PODs, perhaps with Selim III being more resolute, the empire could have begun modernizing several decades earlier, allowing it to regain control over Egypt as well as take advantage of the huge spike in tobacco and cotton prices during the American Civil War.
 
Didn't the Empire have a lot of trouble with fuel? I recall hearing that the Cedars of Lebanon were mostly cut down to fuel Ottoman trains, and wood is hardly ideal train fuel.

Before AHP gets angry, this is just something I heard, and from a not necessarily reliable source - if it's wrong, I apologize and thanks for the correction.
 
Didn't the Empire have a lot of trouble with fuel? I recall hearing that the Cedars of Lebanon were mostly cut down to fuel Ottoman trains, and wood is hardly ideal train fuel.

Before AHP gets angry, this is just something I heard, and from a not necessarily reliable source - if it's wrong, I apologize and thanks for the correction.

No, that's not true. Ottoman trains used coal. Probably during the war wood was used, but the Ottomans had plenty of access to coal normally. The trains in Lebanon were run by a French company, so I'm sure they imported their coal from the cheapest source.
 
The Russians didn't manage to get production start up properly until the last 19th c. even with foreign investment and massive government effort. And it wasn't peripheral territory for them.

Not impossible, but certainly very difficult.

As for "Pastoral Turk Elites" - what, in the 1700s?

True thanks for clearing that up. As for the Turkish elite, well yeah obviously it was diluted a lot, but thta disdain of commerce must have survived.
 
True thanks for clearing that up. As for the Turkish elite, well yeah obviously it was diluted a lot, but thta disdain of commerce must have survived.

Note that while Ottoman Royal Family were certainly of Turkic descent, and were very well aware and proud of their bloodline to the mighty Seljuk of Oghuz tribe, you seem to forget how close the first capital of Ottoman domain to Constantinople was and how that shaped the pattern of their early territorial expansion and thus the mindset they adhered, including on commerce. Even today Turkey is divided between urban west and rural mountainous east. They were not modern capitalists for sure, but if anything their approach to Aegean commerce were just as pragmatic as their Nasrani predecessors. Simply no reason why such feelings of disdain as you said couldn't have been forgotten by them and you are not providing any evidence that they maintained it.
 
Top