Indo-Chinese Relationship

All right. So back during Akbar's rule, the Mughals had launched a trade expedition to China. This was not successful, but Akbar wanted to try again, given that they knew nothing about China, yet we're aware of its location. Though this would not come to pass, what if it did? How would the Chinese approach an Asian power that would see itself as equal? It's postulated that the Mughal Empire may have been the richest power in the world at one point, which is a big deal. How would China react to that?

I can't see the Chinese relegating the Mughals to Canton, and Thande has informed me that China has had a respect for India due to Buddhism, so what would the arrival of Muslims do? Given that China had a fairly large Muslim population, it's not new, but would seeing its effect on India change some stuff?

If the Mughals are able to secure trade with China, how does that affect the Qing Empire? Could the Mughals play the Qing off of the Ming with weapons? Could they serve as mediators?

And also, what was South India's relationship with the Chinese like? Traditionally, you can see an architectural influence in Kerala being present, and China did for sure trade there.
 
Perhaps you could have the the second attempt a couple of generations later under Shah Jahan. In the early 1640's the qing took control from the Ming dynasty, if you have Shah picking the right side and showing off some of the wonders that he was producing in the moghul empire at the time, the new dynasty may have been more inclined to see them as equals.
 
Well, contact is going to be limited to trade and diplomacy. I can't see a Mughal army reaching China at any point.
So, I don't seem them as influencing the Qing/Ming in regards to eachother. Diplomatically neither of them are likely to care about an outside power. Unless the Mughals could actually influence the battlefield itself, I don't see them acting as mediators.
 
In reverse, it might be impossible to have Qing or Ming armies down in Delhi without having to conquer Tibet. If the Mughals and the Chinese are to have a good relationship, perhaps Siam or Burma becomes the mediator in their transactions.
 

scholar

Banned
Nobody? :(
Though I suppose I should be more patient.
China did have some contact with peoples that stated that they were the equal to China, they tended not to get that recognition and could sour relations.

Japan and China, The Emperor in the land where the sun rises sends greetings and good will towards the Emperor in the land where the sun sets. It didn't go over to well for the Chinese, who recognized them only as a King.

The King of Yelang, open of the more powerful states that could have contact with the Han Dynasty, openly believed it was better than the Han Chinese. It spawned the idiom "Yelang thinks too highly of itself."

The Xiongnu forced the Han to recognize it as an equal state. Officially the Han agreed, but it was mere words as they still referred to them as northern barbarians throughout the period.

That said, there are a few instances where China recognized a state as its equal. Da Qin, or the Roman Empire, was considered an equal though it was known only by rumor. This owes itself partially to the idea that Rome and China reflected off of one another as a mirror, which was a popular way of perceiving the world at the time. This slowly died out, but it was recognized again twice: The first time with the Sassanian Empire of Persia and the second time, briefly, with the Arabian Caliphates after efforts to restore the Sassanian Empire failed.

Other than those three instances you had to force China to recognize you as an equal. Even then it was simply something that had to be done and was never culturally accepted.

The question of whether or not China would accept the Mughals as an equal state would largely come down to how extensive trade is and if their is an exchange of ambassadors, or at least an envoy.
 
China did have some contact with peoples that stated that they were the equal to China, they tended not to get that recognition and could sour relations.

Japan and China, The Emperor in the land where the sun rises sends greetings and good will towards the Emperor in the land where the sun sets. It didn't go over to well for the Chinese, who recognized them only as a King.

The King of Yelang, open of the more powerful states that could have contact with the Han Dynasty, openly believed it was better than the Han Chinese. It spawned the idiom "Yelang thinks too highly of itself."

The Xiongnu forced the Han to recognize it as an equal state. Officially the Han agreed, but it was mere words as they still referred to them as northern barbarians throughout the period.

That said, there are a few instances where China recognized a state as its equal. Da Qin, or the Roman Empire, was considered an equal though it was known only by rumor. This owes itself partially to the idea that Rome and China reflected off of one another as a mirror, which was a popular way of perceiving the world at the time. This slowly died out, but it was recognized again twice: The first time with the Sassanian Empire of Persia and the second time, briefly, with the Arabian Caliphates after efforts to restore the Sassanian Empire failed.

Other than those three instances you had to force China to recognize you as an equal. Even then it was simply something that had to be done and was never culturally accepted.

The question of whether or not China would accept the Mughals as an equal state would largely come down to how extensive trade is and if their is an exchange of ambassadors, or at least an envoy.

It will be done through trade, but my question is how? The Mughals know little of China and vice versa. Can we keep this discussion to mainly the Ming? Unless their own fall is guaranteed. Basically I want to know how trade will work with other Asian powers. An empire from the land of Buddha will certainly carry some weight, no?
 

scholar

Banned
It will be done through trade, but my question is how? The Mughals know little of China and vice versa. Can we keep this discussion to mainly the Ming? Unless their own fall is guaranteed. Basically I want to know how trade will work with other Asian powers. An empire from the land of Buddha will certainly carry some weight, no?
Buddhism was at its height in China after the Han Dynasty through to the Song. Once you got the Song Dynasty Confucianism no longer shared its role of dominance with Buddhism which instead became a religion of the masses along with Taoism with the scholarly elite tending towards the philosophical principles of Confucianism. They weren't mutually exclusive, leading to quite the double think when it came to following both. After the Mongols were expelled Buddhism... fell from favor. It was highly popular in some areas, but Confucianism and Taoism were easily head a shoulders above it and the religion didn't hold a tremendous amount of sway over politics like it used to. Until the Qing Dynasty, Buddhism wouldn't get that much power. To be honest, Christianity was more significant than Buddhism. Hell, the Jesuits managed to convert the southern Ming court to Catholicism shortly before the Qing finished its conquest. Ironically their being Muslim might make them more appealing than being the land where Buddha may have first come, since Buddhism had been completely sinicized and made Chinese inside of China by this time.

Trade wouldn't work out in a direct way, even if one were to use the Himalayas it would be perilous and low value. Instead there are two ways: Through access with the silk road and by way of sea.

India was always connected to the Silk Road, its goods traveled alongside China's to the Middle East and Europe, even in greater numbers than the Chinese. The thing is that this trade was always a move westward, not in reverse to the east all that much. The Chinese also had an almost universal disinterest in outside trade coming in. The Ming made a few breaks from that for a time, but when internal struggles were a problem they ultimately abandoned that venture.

Which leads to by way of sea. Believe it or not there was extensive private merchant trade between the Chinese and the Arabs. Chinese and Arab merchants were the main mercantile influence inside the Indian Ocean until well after the arrival of the Europeans. China never really sponsored the merchants, in fact they looked down on them heavily, but they were still a significant part of the spice, porcelain, and silk trades (among other things). In fact, you could say the silk road has two ventures: By land and by sea. Sea was actually the quicker one to use cutting a trip from years to six months, give or take depending on the weather.

silkroad.png


The Mughal State was heavily influenced by Persian culture as well as Indian culture, being more a hybrid of those two than a direct link to the Mongols (though it was clearly extant). It might be possible to get a merchantile focus inside of the state in order to tap into the wealth of the Indian Ocean trade. The state would have the be, at the very least, somewhat stable in order for this to happen. They would also need to establish strong monopoly style set-ups inside of important regions of trade, like the Chinese with Canton or Oman with Muscat. You also need to promote domestic merchants going over seas. For the most part that trade was dominated by the Arabs until you got to Malacca at which point it was largely dominated by the Chinese. Perhaps a disruption in Oman and the Arabian peninsula disrupts the Arab middlemen, but its hard to do. Oman was occupied several dozens of times over and the Arabs were still able to compete with Europeans until most of India fell to them and the European position of mercantile dominance was firmly established and above reproach.

So something that could happen:

-Mughal Empire stabilizes and takes a more hands on approach to taking in the wealth of the Indian Ocean trade.
-The Ming Dynasty does not suffer major internal problems causing it to look inward and abandon outward ventures.
-Something damages the Arabian dominance of the sea route of the silk road.
-Mughal trade expeditions move in to fill in the gap. Some of it is state sponsored, but after the intial wealth comes in it largely becomes a series of private endeavors closely linked to Mughal controlled ports.
-Chinese merchants and Indian merchants become much closer to one another, each bringing back rumors of the wealth and power of their respective nations.
-The Mughal state moves first and sends a trade mission with 'tribute' (gifts) for the Ming court and makes sure that it is fantastic to make a good impression.
-Suitably impressed the Ming become interested enough in the Mughal state to do more than the usual confirming of rank and title, perhaps sending either an envoy or a trade mission assuming they have opted to continue doing those.
-The Mughals are likewise impressed, getting reports back from both their trade mission and with the people from China now coming over in greater frequency. Texts written in India are translated into Chinese, Chinese classics are translated into Sanskrit, Arabic, and Persian.
-The longer this goes on, the better the results are and the closer you get to equal recognition. However, it really only takes a bad civil war on either side, China looking inward, or a significant outward war to disrupt this. Further, the arrival of the Europeans, if they attain similar levels of dominance as far as trade is concerned, will cause this to lessen and end.
 
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