Indigenous Powerhouse in The Pacific Northwest

It seems a bit odd to me why their was no major power in the Pacific Northwest. Why do I say this well they had the perfect location for expansion because while they didn't have a great farmland they did have an excellent and stable food from the sea. They were also somewhat close the the east Asian powers (such as Japan,China,Korea) in which they could have traded with to get technology. They also had some of the best vegetation for the construction of buildings and ships in which they could have expanded. Out of all the places though in North Americas that would strike me as one of the best areas overall to start such an empire. So tell me why did such a thing never happen ? What events that would allow this to happen?
 
probably it didn't happen for similar reasons the other native americans never did it.

and how the hell would they trade with the Japanese or the Koreans? neither of those civilizations ever came close to the west coast. China might have, but let's not get started on another Zheng He timeline,please.
 
I'll venture a guess, as I've spent time in both the North West, and SE Alaska. From what I've seen, you're right, there is a massive abundance of food, especially naturally. In Alaska in particular, there never was a need to develop agricultural techniques because there was just so much around to be picked up.

Tribes I know up there would stock up a whole years worth of salmon with just a week's worth of work during the salmon runs. The same with berries and many other food sources.

I'm guessing this will lead to is a very pacifist society. Nearly all the Pacific Northwest tribes are known for being very peaceful. With no food shortages and equal wealth available to all who would just pick it up, there was no need to subjugate neighbors: equals very non-warlike tribes: equals little need for innovation of any type.
 
I'm guessing this will lead to is a very pacifist society. Nearly all the Pacific Northwest tribes are known for being very peaceful. With no food shortages and equal wealth available to all who would just pick it up, there was no need to subjugate neighbors: equals very non-warlike tribes: equals little need for innovation of any type.
Eh? Where you getting this from? Most of those tribes, especially the powerful Tlingit and Haida, were well known for slave raids on the other tribes. I've heard at one time a tird of the Haida were slaves captured in raids. Whether that is exaggerated or not, I higly doubt they'd turn pacifistic. There was no major power in the northwest because they really didn't see any need to actually take their enemies' land, they just wanted the people.
 
Eh? Where you getting this from? Most of those tribes, especially the powerful Tlingit and Haida, were well known for slave raids on the other tribes. I've heard at one time a tird of the Haida were slaves captured in raids. Whether that is exaggerated or not, I higly doubt they'd turn pacifistic. There was no major power in the northwest because they really didn't see any need to actually take their enemies' land, they just wanted the people.

That's an idea. Some chief could take power that would want to "conquer the bountiful lands for the Great Spirit" or whatever. But I don't think they'd have the numbers to do it. I suppose then they'd have to result to extreme measures of subjagation. Eventually the state would break apart, but the foundations for independent kingdoms in the NW would be laid.
 

Keenir

Banned
That's an idea. Some chief could take power that would want to "conquer the bountiful lands for the Great Spirit" or whatever.

and, in doing so, they lose everything that made them the leader - potlatch wasn't a hobby, after all.

Eventually the state would break apart, but the foundations for independent kingdoms in the NW would be laid.

er, not.
 
Most of the time they had other stuff to do rather than building complex states and nations. Fishing is more labor intensive then farming and although the area had abundant food sources on land none of them were domesticable, and they didn't compare with the sea in terms of sheer production capabilities. Therefore there wasn't any reason for them to farm, which is a major component of some kind of organization higher then that local clan/house. Most of the excess production and work (which although fishing is more labor intensive there was a lot of) was put into potlatches, war or other services. I don't think there will be much change until better boat technology or agriculture is introduced. Then there may be enough people for states to really start forming.
 
and, in doing so, they lose everything that made them the leader - potlatch wasn't a hobby, after all.



er, not.

Hey, it's not like I think this likely either, for the same reason Atom mentioned about farming. I was just trying to take it and run with it
 
Would this happen if the Japanese and Chinese had established trade relations from a freak accident?
Possibly. In OTL there was actually quite a bit of use of washed up debris from across the Pacific which they used. I think the real question is what amount of contact the Chinese/Japanes would want with them. Perhpas furs? Then I could see a small chinese settlement in Seattle or Portland (nice harbors, good land) and everyone around them would adopt their styles.
 
and, in doing so, they lose everything that made them the leader - potlatch wasn't a hobby, after all.



er, not.



potlatch, first thing that led to my mind. Add to that fact that they had no reason to attack others due to the plethora of natural resources available to them. They had so much wealth, (in thier own way), that they became obsessed with giving it away. Just not Empire building material IMHO.
 

HueyLong

Banned
Intensive fishing does not necessarily squash all other efforts. Japan was very intensive on fishing over agriculture, but something still developed there.

Maybe with some change in the weather north, you could have migrant tribes come and conquer, setting everything off with their wars and the likely starvation from disruption of the area. That could push towards something like the Chichimecs in Mexico.
 
Intensive fishing does not necessarily squash all other efforts. Japan was very intensive on fishing over agriculture, but something still developed there.

Maybe with some change in the weather north, you could have migrant tribes come and conquer, setting everything off with their wars and the likely starvation from disruption of the area. That could push towards something like the Chichimecs in Mexico.

No it doesn't, but combined with abundant land resources there's no reason for them to develope agriculture. And they weren't even near the main agricultural areas. I have know idea how corn grows there, but it would take a long time for all the crops to aclimitize.

Also which Chichimeca? Those usually referd to the northern Barbarians of Mexico, and I'm not sure how they are at all similar to the NW. Please do tell.
 

HueyLong

Banned
No it doesn't, but combined with abundant land resources there's no reason for them to develope agriculture. And they weren't even near the main agricultural areas. I have know idea how corn grows there, but it would take a long time for all the crops to aclimitize.

Also which Chichimeca? Those usually referd to the northern Barbarians of Mexico, and I'm not sure how they are at all similar to the NW. Please do tell.

Japan had abundant resources in its lowlands prior to agricultural production and the introduction of rice farming. They even skipped the "pastoral" phase of development, with the only real efforts at cattle raising happening in the poor north, Hokkaido. They are the closest OTL parallel to the Pacific Northwest, I think.

The Chichimeca (collective term, not the specific tribe) are believed to be migrant tribes from California who moved into the north of Mexico and set off a long string of migrations across Mexico.

Basically, by bringing some starving migrant tribes from further north into the Pacific Northwest, you could hopefully cause something much the same.
 
potlatch, first thing that led to my mind. Add to that fact that they had no reason to attack others due to the plethora of natural resources available to them. They had so much wealth, (in thier own way), that they became obsessed with giving it away. Just not Empire building material IMHO.

Oh boy.

Potlaches are a very misunderstood thing. The original concept was that a successful man/family would show (and increase) his status by giving away food (mostly) to more unfortunates.
However, with the massive disruption caused by the advent of Europeans, and European diseases (especially the population crashes), what had been a useful social adjustment mechanism became pathological (hence, e.g. burning down houses full of goods).
 

HueyLong

Banned
Oh boy.

Potlaches are a very misunderstood thing. The original concept was that a successful man/family would show (and increase) his status by giving away food (mostly) to more unfortunates.
However, with the massive disruption caused by the advent of Europeans, and European diseases (especially the population crashes), what had been a useful social adjustment mechanism became pathological (hence, e.g. burning down houses full of goods).

Almost sounds like it could be something like the mead-hall system of the Germans.....
 
Oh boy.

Potlaches are a very misunderstood thing. The original concept was that a successful man/family would show (and increase) his status by giving away food (mostly) to more unfortunates.
However, with the massive disruption caused by the advent of Europeans, and European diseases (especially the population crashes), what had been a useful social adjustment mechanism became pathological (hence, e.g. burning down houses full of goods).

Don't get me wrong, I consider that a great way of redistributing wealth in a somewhat small group. It is rather destructive, economically, in European way, but it tends to create strong social relationships in simpler, for lack of a better term, cultures. jmo
 
Don't get me wrong, I consider that a great way of redistributing wealth in a somewhat small group. It is rather destructive, economically, in European way, but it tends to create strong social relationships in simpler, for lack of a better term, cultures. jmo
Why is it destructive, please explain more? Things weren't usually destroyed before European contact. And they were less frequent without the wealth that came from otter pelts.
 
Maybe with some change in the weather north, you could have migrant tribes come and conquer, setting everything off with their wars and the likely starvation from disruption of the area. That could push towards something like the Chichimecs in Mexico.
Who would be a likely candidate for such an event though?
 
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