Indian Territory in an independent CSA

Wolfpaw

Banned
A common trope in CS-victory scenarios is Confederate control over the Indian Territory, OTL's Oklahoma. Despite this popularity, there's hardly any discussion of it other than what name to adopt upon reaching statehood.

So given a standard '62-'63 CS-victory scenario, how would the Indian Territory develop as a part of the CSA? Culturally, economically, politically.
 
A common trope in CS-victory scenarios is Confederate control over the Indian Territory, OTL's Oklahoma. Despite this popularity, there's hardly any discussion of it other than what name to adopt upon reaching statehood.

So given a standard '62-'63 CS-victory scenario, how would the Indian Territory develop as a part of the CSA? Culturally, economically, politically.


The Indians would soon find out that the CSA would no more respect their rights than the USA did.
 
I could see the Confederacy adopting a very twisted kind of Indian policy whereby the Indian slaveowners are given by the Confederate government the kind of despotic powers over the rest of their tribes that slaveowners have in the Confederacy as a whole, with the use of slavery in the Five Civilized Tribes giving the Confederacy a distorted kind of racial equality view here in that all slaveholders are equal by virtue of owning slaves. This could give Confederate racism a kind of nuance as seen in Harry Turtledove where the Indian slaveholders would not be whites, but they'd also very much not be blacks.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Snake, you often mention how the CS government is going to have a crisis paying the veterans post-War.

I was wondering, might they try to pay them off with land grants out West? Couldn't Richmond open up the Indian Territory and basically say, "take what you can grab" as a way to sate the veterans?

The Confederate military always struck me as an institution that needed momentum to sustain itself; another "easy win" might be just what they're looking for after the Civil War, especially if it "benefits" them at home.
 
Snake, you often mention how the CS government is going to have a crisis paying the veterans post-War.

I was wondering, might they try to pay them off with land grants out West? Couldn't Richmond open up the Indian Territory and basically say, "take what you can grab" as a way to sate the veterans?

The Confederate military always struck me as an institution that needed momentum to sustain itself; another "easy win" might be just what they're looking for after the Civil War, especially if it "benefits" them at home.

Not enough land in Oklahoma and West Texas worth having to pay for all the soldiers who'd want it. Another problem is that the Oklahoma/Indian Territory Indians include Confederate veterans.....
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Not enough land in Oklahoma and West Texas worth having to pay for all the soldiers who'd want it. Another problem is that the Oklahoma/Indian Territory Indians include Confederate veterans.....
I thought they might be able to drum up the race thing as an excuse, but the you're right in that CS military probably won't turn against its own, especially over land not worth having.

I don't know why, but I could see a lot of freebooting in an independent Confederacy.
 
If oil is discovered in the Indian Territory and the Indians' rights to it are respected, they might be very rich.

(Granted, this is going to be important much later.)

If the poor whites gain control of the Confederacy, they might try to expropriate the Indians out of envy. Things might get bad.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
If the poor whites gain control of the Confederacy, they might try to expropriate the Indians out of envy. Things might get bad.
I think you'll find that the planter class is no less immune to race-based expropriation than poor whites. The only difference is that the latter will probably expropriate it for ameliorative ends, whereas the former will expropriate it for private economic gain.
 
One thing I wonder: if the victorious CSA turns out to be a weak, basket case of a nation like many of us assume, what's to stop settlers from the US from crossing that long straight-line, natural-boundary-lacking border between the Indian Territory and Kansas and perhaps pulling a Texas on the CSA? Yankee filibusters, anyone :D?

Also, violence by the CSA-backed Indian tribes against Yankee settlers would make a fine casus belli for Round 2 of the War between the States.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
One thing I wonder: if the victorious CSA turns out to be a weak, basket case of a nation like many of us assume, what's to stop settlers from the US from crossing that long straight-line, natural-boundary-lacking border between the Indian Territory and Kansas and perhaps pulling a Texas on the CSA? Yankee filibusters, anyone :D?
I'm sure that whatever peace treaty the US and CS hammer out will take care of the "reverse-settlement" issue; it was something that the CSA was very worried about.

That being said, Indian Territory is basically going to be a garrison zone. The main question is will the CS let the Tribes garrison it, or will they fill it with CS soldiers?

Also, violence by the CSA-backed Indian tribes against Yankee settlers would make a fine casus belli for Round 2 of the War between the States.
Why? So long as the CSA is okay with shooting illegal immigrants, the Union isn't really in a position to complain.
 
I think the Five Civilized Tribes eventually form a state government using a state senate of 15-25 with 3 to 5 per tribe. They either build a capital from scratch or designate each tribal capital as something - two get universities, one gets the capitol building, another the bureaucracy/state offices, and maybe the last one gets the legislature. It would be akin to a state with five giant counties that have more self-governance but I say it becomes a state circa 1880-1890 or so. Also, the Confederate policy on Native Americans is likely to take a lighter hand if only to give them a nicer reputation than their Yankee counterparts and perhaps draw loyalty in the American West. Why would hostile Indians attack a nation that respects them when they can bring much more damage to bear against one that does not? Could many of the Native Americans decide to move to one place and secede to the Confederacy, especially one like the New Mexico Territory which was thinly populated and perhaps not so well guarded even well into the 20th century?

Oil will be a game-changer for the state in question and I think if not siphoned off by a few corrupt tribal leaders then the Native Americans might do very well with oil money instead of casino money. Imagine a University of (state name here) or (state name here) State University with endowments in the billions and a standard of living among the highest in the world! The economic clout would be fantastic, the downside would be the likelihood of being a target if the US and CSA ever went to war again...
 
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