Indian linguistic influence on other colonial powers

Leo Caesius

Banned
I think we need Leo in to answer this. I do recall that in cut off bits of Magna Graeca in the Italian hinterland, they were supposed to be speaking Greek after the (Byzantine, IIRC!) Empire fell.
Yes, they're still around to this day (one of the Greek-speaking towns is named Calimera of all things). However, I'm led to believe that the extent to which they speak Greek today is highly overrated - yet another language on its way out.

Sardinian is very conservative, even in comparison to other Italian dialects (which are more conservative, broadly speaking, than other Romance languages). Dante himself criticized the Sardinians on the grounds that they didn't have a proper vulgar tongue but merely "aped" Latin.

There are some Punic words in Sardinian and Sicilian, but it's hard to disentangle them from other Semitic influences (particularly Arabic). I've only seen a few lexical items of indubitably Punic origin.
 

Thande

Donor
I know it's been mentioned, but you people spell pajamas with a Y?

A fallen tongue.
Yes because a debased form from a country that was never anywhere near India is obviously more accurate than one that was taken directly by EIC man in the damn country itself. :rolleyes:

Yes, they're still around to this day (one of the Greek-speaking towns is named Calimera of all things). However, I'm led to believe that the extent to which they speak Greek today is highly overrated - yet another language on its way out.

Sardinian is very conservative, even in comparison to other Italian dialects (which are more conservative, broadly speaking, than other Romance languages). Dante himself criticized the Sardinians on the grounds that they didn't have a proper vulgar tongue but merely "aped" Latin.

There are some Punic words in Sardinian and Sicilian, but it's hard to disentangle them from other Semitic influences (particularly Arabic). I've only seen a few lexical items of indubitably Punic origin.

Thanks for that, Leo, interesting as always. In your opinion, what dialect (I assume of Italian) nowadays would be closest to Vulgar Latin? I realise that that may be a meaningless question without specifying an era for the Vulgar Latin in question...
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Yes because a debased form from a country that was never anywhere near India is obviously more accurate than one that was taken directly by EIC man in the damn country itself. :rolleyes:
It's originally a Persian word, anyway, the form of which has both a y and an ā (pāyjāmeh), so we can both get along.

Thanks for that, Leo, interesting as always. In your opinion, what dialect (I assume of Italian) nowadays would be closest to Vulgar Latin? I realise that that may be a meaningless question without specifying an era for the Vulgar Latin in question...
It depends on what you're looking for. In terms of vocabulary I'd suspect that the standard dialect contains the most Latinate vocabulary especially given linguistic purist efforts over the years (in fact, Italian is said to preserve more Latin vocabulary than any other language, although it's clear that there are still lots of loan words; there's a perennial debate as to whether a murderer is to be properly called a killer (from the English) or a sicario (from Latin sicarius). In terms of phonology, though, Sardinian is clearly the most conservative.

The Southern Italian dialects preserve the old Latin perfect ("passato rimoto") which is reflected even in the way that people down there speak standard Italian (whereas northerners tend to use an analytical construction with an auxiliary verb "to have" or "to be" as in other Romance languages, reserving the Latin perfect for things that happened way back in the past). I understand that the Spanish verbal system preserves the most complexity, but I haven't studied it to any great extent beyond my delvings in Ladino. Romanian preserves vestiges of the inflectional system of the noun, but it is innovative in just about every other regard.

Actually, if you're interested, I could probably post a list of Italian words of Indian origin here. It wouldn't be comprehensive, but if you're looking for Italian colonies there it might do the trick.
 

Thande

Donor
It's originally a Persian word, anyway, the form of which has both a y and an ā (pāyjāmeh), so we can both get along.
Ah, compromise! Let's all sing the song from Sesame Street :D

Leo Caesius said:
It depends on what you're looking for. In terms of vocabulary I'd suspect that the standard dialect contains the most Latinate vocabulary especially given linguistic purist efforts over the years (in fact, Italian is said to preserve more Latin vocabulary than any other language, although it's clear that there are still lots of loan words; there's a perennial debate as to whether a murderer is to be properly called a killer (from the English) or a sicario (from Latin sicarius). In terms of phonology, though, Sardinian is clearly the most conservative.
Fair enough then.

Leo said:
Actually, if you're interested, I could probably post a list of Italian words of Indian origin here. It wouldn't be comprehensive, but if you're looking for Italian colonies there it might do the trick.
I'd like that a lot.

If possible, can you perhaps indicate what Neapolitan equivalents might be in the cases where it would differ from the Tuscan-derived modern standard Italian?

(Anyone who reads my TL should have closed their eyes before the last paragraph :rolleyes: )
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
I'd like that a lot.

If possible, can you perhaps indicate what Neapolitan equivalents might be in the cases where it would differ from the Tuscan-derived modern standard Italian?
I'll give it my best shot. As I may have mentioned, my mother's family comes from Naples, so growing up I was actually more familiar with that dialect than the standard one, although I can't claim any proficiency.

I'm about to board a plane for Chicago, but I will attend to this as soon as I get back.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Alright, here's my effort. These are not necessarily the modern standard Italian words, which in many cases are derived transparently from English (shampoo, chutney, etc.) but words from an alternate scenario in which Italians colonized India. Some may seem a bit arbitrary, and for that I apologize.

(English - Italian - Napuletan)

Foods:
Jackfruit - giacchiere - id.
Mango - mango - id.
Curry - cari - id.
Sugar - zucchero - zùccaro
Ginger - zenzero - id.
Candy - candito - id.
Masala - massala - id.
Chutney - ciatni - ciàtni
Kedgeree - keggieri - id.

Other trade goods:
Shampoo - sciampu - sciàmpu
Musk - muschio - mùschio
Teak - tec - id.
Copra and coir - la copra e il caiare - a cupra e o ccajare
Cheroot - sciuruto - sciùruto
Indigo - indaco - id.

Clothes and Textiles:
Saree - sari - id.
Dungaree - dungari - dùngari
Bandana - bandana - id.
Bangle - bungheri - bùngheri
Cummerbund - camarbando - id.
Jute - iuta - jùta
Cashmere - cascemiro - id.
Chintz - citra - id.
Gunny - goni - id.

Architecture:
Palanquin - palanchino - id.
Pagoda - pagoda - id.

Animals:
Calico - calicuto - id.
Mongoose - manguste - id.
Bandicoot - bandicuto - id.
Anaconda - anaconda - id.
Cheetah - cita - id.

Socio-Religious terms:
Karma - carma - id.
Dharma - darma - rarma
Chakra - ciakra - ciàkra
Yoga - ioga - jòga
Mantra - mantra - id.
Mandala - mandala - id.
Pundit - pandito - id.
Guru - guru - id.
Nirvana - nirvana - id.
Suttee - sati - id.
Sutra - sutra - id.
Pariah - paraia - paraja
Purdah - purda - id.
Juggernaut - giagannata - id.

Tandoor oven - tannuro - id.
polo - polo - id.
swastika - svastica - id.
dinghy - dinghi - ringhi

Note that the final vowel is almost always pronounced as a schwa in Napuletan.
 

MrP

Banned
I suppose I should bump this so that Thande sees it when he gets back. When is he getting back, anyway?

Ooh, groovy list, old man! :cool:

I think he said he was off home for a week, so it'll be mid-next week before he gets back.
 
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