Independent Venetia in a CP Victory

In many CP Victory TLs, I have seen A-H usually annexed Venetia from Italy. This is mostly accepted as one of the worst possible moves for A-H after the War. However, what if the CPs separated Venetia from Italy and made it an independent state within MittelEuropa? I heard the Austrians respected the Venetian irredentism more than Italy ever did so it may be possible. How viable is Venetia and its future development in such circumstance?
 
No doubt bitterly torn between regional nationalism and Italian irredentism. What sort of government does Venetia have? Is it a monarchy under a Habsburg archduke, or is it a republic under a president/doge?
 
It'd be an impoverished minor kingdom, only suffering more the less economically integrated they try to be from Austria. While they certainly have a polished history, Veneto's star was rather dim during the 19th and early 20th century in a manner quite similar to Sicily. I highly doubt they'd have the capacity to industrialize or get agriculturally efficient enough (due to a lack of capital if nothing else) to cut out a highly profitable niche in the Mittleuropan markets: Polish grain and Bulgarian/Ottoman orchard crops having a relative economic advantage, to say nothing of Bohemian and German industry, and don't have a natural resource to ply into state capitalist patronage
 
This kind, with a hasburg as a insult to the saboya house

In this case, what should be the most proper name for this state? Archduchy/Duchy of Venice/Venetia?

It'd be an impoverished minor kingdom, only suffering more the less economically integrated they try to be from Austria. While they certainly have a polished history, Veneto's star was rather dim during the 19th and early 20th century in a manner quite similar to Sicily. I highly doubt they'd have the capacity to industrialize or get agriculturally efficient enough (due to a lack of capital if nothing else) to cut out a highly profitable niche in the Mittleuropan markets: Polish grain and Bulgarian/Ottoman orchard crops having a relative economic advantage, to say nothing of Bohemian and German industry, and don't have a natural resource to ply into state capitalist patronage

So they can survive as long as Germany and A-H still see the benefits of them being a buffer state? Assume the Italians turned fascist as OLT, would the threat be large enough for them to be propped up significantly by the CPs?
 
In this case, what should be the most proper name for this state? Archduchy/Duchy of Venice/Venetia?



So they can survive as long as Germany and A-H still see the benefits of them being a buffer state? Assume the Italians turned fascist as OLT, would the threat be large enough for them to be propped up significantly by the CPs?

Well, considering any CP victory probably involves an Austrian occupation of Veneto, at least for the remainder of the war and the time needed to establish the new government, and the issues of starvation faced in A-H at the time, they're going to HAVE to be propped up as an unprofitable buffer state, being in an economically wrecked state even worse than pre-war. Add the inevitable exodus of Italian sympathizers, and I can see decades of time where Venice becomes a source of migrant laborers either for Austrian agriculture (post war there's going to be a demand for physically fit young men) and civilian-converted war industries to help Vienna handle the labor shortage she'd be facing post-war and the return to a less-rationed economy and the revival of civilian demand. In that case, the region can make a living or remittances alongside their traditional economic system, which ties them to the CP with pretty strong motivators. Being the source of the region's liquid currency and having a chunk of the population effectively held hostage and at least partially integrated into the wider Austrian culture.

As for the Facism, I can imagine a strong internal split between those who stayed (being pro Italian) and those families more well tied to the wider remittance economy (who'd likely favor continued status quo): very similar to Spain or Portugal in terms of the radicalism and polarization of local politics. Especially if Vienna goes a more liberal/cosmopolitanism route.
 
Venetian separatism? AFAIK, it wasn't remotely strong enough to shoulder such a project. And it would be weaker than ever, after the atrocities committed by Austro-Hungarian troops across the region. Much like annexed Venetia, "independent" Venetia would still be a shitshow, and would still require heavily authoritarian government and permanent military occupation. It would represent yet another point of instability in Mitteleuropa, and its long term survival would not be very viable.
 
Those maps!

I have always objected to the assumption that Austria would absorb Venetia in any but the most insanely overwhelming, and late won, of CP victories. This now cliche annexation always seems like an afterthought by the poster, as if the map ought to have Venetia. The idea of an independent Venetia however, I think is even more objectionable. The CP may have been arrogant (as were the Western Entente) but they weren't so foolish as to create the kind of trouble that an independent Venetia would make; it's an unnecessary flashpoint in a defeated enemy. You see, the Germans and Austrians would be well aware that Italians are already heavily demoralized, worn out and totally unable to continue the fight at this point even if they desired to. Given the casualties for what was obtained even OTL, the Italians had good reason to question certain things about their country's participation. With a defeat, there will not only be no victory to help ease the pain of loss but it will also come with stiff, humiliating reparations, other penalties that impair its offensive military capability in the immediate future and the loss of any hope of expansion in the Adriatic. Italy will also not necessarily be under full occupation at the armistice, since the Germans would not likely be able to ever commit the necessary resources to achieve that on the Italian front unless France - the primary goal - was already beaten. Once that was achieved, Italy would of course, have to agree to peace terms.

Though Italy would accept certain terms, giving up major territorial concessions would be too great a penalty to yield. Besides, since Italy will be neutralized and broken in the way France was, it will be pointless to seize more territory from her or try to carve her up against her will and give that country its own Alsace Lorraine to fester and undermine German plans. Think about it: the border with Italy is already quite defensible and, unlike Alsace, the proposed annexations and puppet states don't provide all that much for Germany or Austria's security that wasn't already there. Nor is Italy liable to be nearly as threatening a country as France was in any likely scenario; it had to be bribed to join the war in the first place and had at least officially been part of the triple alliance before that. It is not inconceivable that it would be amenable to future cooperation in a new, German dominated Mitteleuropa power bloc. Germany and Austria-Hungary could continue fighting take Italy down completely but why keep fighting after so much if it all it gets you is some land for bragging rights? All the more so since the Ottomans were growing tired of war and the Russia could not be ignored for long.

Remember also that the Germans imposed harsh terms on Romania but they didn't partition it even though they completely conquered the nation (which is not going to be the case for Italy at the time of armistice). That country was not split into an independent Moldavia and Wallachia and was actually allowed to unite with Bessarabia. Not only that, but it had few territorial concessions, save the Northern Dubrudja (and control of a few small Carpathian passes to Hungary). In the case of the Dubrudja, the Germans didn't want to do that and only after being badgered quite thoroughly did they relent and allow Bulgaria to take the Northern Dobrudja (and most of that was at least a heavily Bulgarian area, whereas Venetia was not inhabited by the Germans, Magyars or Slavs who made up most of the dual monarchy's population). Ideally, Italy will be brought into the Central powers fold one day, provided the ill will of the war weary people is directed at their government for throwing them into futile war instead of against the German power axis, which is what would happen if Venezia was taken. After all, the Germans will still perceive the main future threats as Britain (which they want to challenge in the Med as best they can) and of course, who needs a future southern front if and when Russia regains its strength for a colossal (and possibly 'final', in military terms) future showdown in the East?
 
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Those maps!

I have always objected to the assumption that Austria would absorb Venetia in any but the most insanely overwhelming, and late won, of CP victories. This now cliche annexation always seems like an afterthought by the poster, as if the map ought to have Venetia. The idea of an independent Venetia however, I think is even more objectionable. The CP may have been arrogant (as were the Western Entente) but they weren't so foolish as to create the kind of trouble that an independent Venetia would make; it's an unnecessary flashpoint in a defeated enemy. You see, the Germans and Austrians would be well aware that Italians are already heavily demoralized, worn out and totally unable to continue the fight at this point even if they desired to. Given the casualties for what was obtained even OTL, the Italians had good reason to question certain things about their country's participation. With a defeat, there will not only be no victory to help ease the pain of loss but it will also come with stiff, humiliating reparations, other penalties that impair its offensive military capability in the immediate future and the loss of any hope of expansion in the Adriatic. Italy will also not necessarily be under full occupation at the armistice, since the Germans would not likely be able to never commit the necessary resources to achieve that on the Italian front unless France - the primary goal - was already beaten. Once that was achieved, Italy would of course, have to agree to peace terms. Though Italy would accept certain terms, giving up major territorial concessions would be too great a penalty to yield. Besides, since Italy will be neutralized and broken in the way France was, it will be unnecessary to seize more territory from her and she will be more amenable to further Central powers plans without unnecessarily trying to carve her up against her will and giving that country its own Alsace Lorraine to fester and undermine German plans. Germany and Austria-Hungary could take Italy down completely but why keep fighting after so much if it all it gets you is some land for bragging rights? Remember that the Germans imposed harsh terms on Romania but they didn't partition it even though they completely conquered the nation (which is not going to be the case for Italy at the time of armistice). That country was not split into an independent Moldavia and Wallachia and was actually allowed to unite with Bessarabia. Not only that, but it had few territorial concessions, save the Northern Dubrudja (and control of a few small Carpathian passes to Hungary). In the case of the Dubrudja, the Germans didn't want to do that and only after being badgered quite thoroughly did they relent and allow Bulgaria to take the Northern Dobrudja (and most of that was at least a heavily Bulgarian area, whereas Venetia was not inhabited by the Germans, Magyars or Slavs who made up most of the dual monarchy's population). Ideally, Italy will be brought into the Central powers fold one day, provided the ill will of the war weary people is directed at their government for throwing them into futile war instead of against the German power axis, which is what would happen if Venezia was taken. After all, the Germans will still perceive the main future threats as Britain (which they want to challenge in the Med as best they can) and of course, who needs a future southern front if and when Russia regains its strength for a colossal (and possibly 'final', in military terms) future showdown in the East?

Since you mentioned Bessarabia reuniting with Romania, I wonder what would happen if the CPs allowed Italy to take back Corsica and Savoy. French revanchism may be even worse but would Italy lean toward the CPs soon in the near future?
 
Since you mentioned Bessarabia reuniting with Romania, I wonder what would happen if the CPs allowed Italy to take back Corsica and Savoy. French revanchism may be even worse but would Italy lean toward the CPs soon in the near future?
Well, doing so would mean trading other bargaining chips at the table and using them for an enemy power (especially one that dealt secretly with the Entente and attacked with essentially no provocation) would likely be no more popular among the CP than it was OTL at Versailles. Germany and Austria needed too much from France to spare anything and victory or not, they were not going to have a blank cheque: reparations, food, acceptance of suzerainty over occupied nations and the return of colonies were all hugely important matters and the parts of France in question are unoccupied addition to being both the most defensible and among the furtherest from the front. On the other hand, if the CP, for some reason, decided and convinced Italy to withdraw before the general armistice (which would be a very strange thing to do after such fighting) and possibly to provide some sort of material assistance/payment, then maybe they could cut some kind of deal after all. Corsica and Savoy, being too integral to France and important to its security, might be a tall order but maybe, just maybe, Italy could obtain Tunisia, which it had long felt it, and not France, should have had control over.
 
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