Independent Ukraine after WW1?

[The Sandman]

Not sure how likely this is, but what if the White armies come the conclusion that they could do better if they focus their efforts on holding one valuable bit of the country rather than dissipating their efforts, and subsequently move all available forces to the Ukraine? Maybe they could try to make something out of the Kievan Rus connection there, and thus hold on to the area afterward.

 

[Wendell]

Not sure how likely this is, but what if the White armies come the conclusion that they could do better if they focus their efforts on holding one valuable bit of the country rather than dissipating their efforts, and subsequently move all available forces to the Ukraine? Maybe they could try to make something out of the Kievan Rus connection there, and thus hold on to the area afterward.

Would it be a monarchy?

 

[The Sandman]

Possibly, although I doubt that any of the factions would let Tsar Whoever hold very much power; one Nicholas II would have been more enough to convince them that letting a Tsar screw things up was a bad idea.

 

[Wendell]

Possibly, although I doubt that any of the factions would let Tsar Whoever hold very much power; one Nicholas II would have been more enough to convince them that letting a Tsar screw things up was a bad idea.

Could this incarnation of Ukraine secure much of Transcaucasia as well. Maybe the Mensheviks are won over to the White cause?

 

[The Sandman]

I honestly am not sure, and I suspect that the Transcaucasian republics would have preferred to maintain their independence regardless of which Russia was getting involved.

The Mensheviks might join up, assuming they were given at least some degree of political control. That combination might be dangerous; the Mensheviks had more popular support than the bulk of the Whites did, and the Whites could have provided the Mensheviks with the troops they needed to fight the Soviets. Maybe we end up with a White Ukraine and a Menshevik Byelorussia?

 

[Wendell]

I honestly am not sure, and I suspect that the Transcaucasian republics would have preferred to maintain their independence regardless of which Russia was getting involved.

The Mensheviks might join up, assuming they were given at least some degree of political control. That combination might be dangerous; the Mensheviks had more popular support than the bulk of the Whites did, and the Whites could have provided the Mensheviks with the troops they needed to fight the Soviets. Maybe we end up with a White Ukraine and a Menshevik Byelorussia?

I was thinking about the potential for Cossacks in and near Transcaucasia to fall in line, and help secure this area-possibly with foreign help-for the government in Kiev...

 

[The Sandman]

I think that, in this scenario, those armies would have already been in the Ukraine trying to hold off the Reds. I'm not sure if the Whites ever managed that degree of coherence during the war, but it's probably one of the few things that could have kept the Bolsheviks from overrunning the Ukraine. Transcaucasia would have been sacrificed in exchange, or just left in the hands of the Georgians, Armenians and Azerbaijanis.

 

[Wendell]

I think that, in this scenario, those armies would have already been in the Ukraine trying to hold off the Reds. I'm not sure if the Whites ever managed that degree of coherence during the war, but it's probably one of the few things that could have kept the Bolsheviks from overrunning the Ukraine. Transcaucasia would have been sacrificed in exchange, or just left in the hands of the Georgians, Armenians and Azerbaijanis.

True. I was just contemplating the Oil...

 

[The Sandman]

Well, there would be more than enough time for that once the Bolsheviks were driven back. In this scenario, the Reds probably try to hold on to Russia proper, Belarus, and the Central Asian 'Stans while gearing up for round two in five to ten years. With White armies and Mensheviks in control of Ukraine, Transcaucasia is low on the Soviet priority list.

 

[Wendell]

Well, there would be more than enough time for that once the Bolsheviks were driven back. In this scenario, the Reds probably try to hold on to Russia proper, Belarus, and the Central Asian 'Stans while gearing up for round two in five to ten years. With White armies and Mensheviks in control of Ukraine, Transcaucasia is low on the Soviet priority list.

Might a racialist regime emerge in Ukraine?

 

[The Sandman]

It would be pretty hard to do; you'd have Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Russians, Romanians, and maybe some Poles mixed in at the very least, plus refugees from the Transcaucausus if the Bolsheviks do decide to crush it. Any of that sort of junk would make White Ukraine, or Kievan Russia, come apart at the seams.

 

[Scarecrow]

It would be pretty hard to do; you'd have Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Russians, Romanians, and maybe some Poles mixed in at the very least, plus refugees from the Transcaucausus if the Bolsheviks do decide to crush it. Any of that sort of junk would make White Ukraine, or Kievan Russia, come apart at the seams.

eh, thats why i decided against doing a Kievan Russia/White Ukraine/surviving Romanov/thing, and stick with easier tl idea that i have already decided upon

 

[Strategos' Risk]

A thread o' mine that seems relevant.

Would the creation of an independent Ukraine be a big boost to the proposed Miedzymorze?

A late version of the concept was attempted by interwar Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs Józef Beck, a Piłsudski protege. It envisioned a Central European union as also including Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Greece: thus stretching not only west-east from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, but north-south from the Arctic Ocean to the Mediterranean Sea. Such a polity, comprising some 150 million central Europeans, with a common foreign policy, might have been a force to be reckoned with by Nazi Germany in the west and the Soviet Union in the east.

 

[Wendell]

A thread o' mine that seems relevant.

Would the creation of an independent Ukraine be a big boost to the proposed Miedzymorze?

Nice, but what you quoted would be next to impossible to last, being so large.

 

[Sir Isaac Brock]

A thread o' mine that seems relevant.

Would the creation of an independent Ukraine be a big boost to the proposed Miedzymorze?

Problem is the Poles had plenty of the Ukrainians and Belarusians and Lithuanians inside their borders IOTL (both before the partitions and after WWI) and they never properly set-up a federation in the mould of Switzerland or Belgium. They always ran the place as a Polish nation-state. Of course this isn't a problem limited to Poles, many of the nations of C. Europe in this time period were famous for being jealous and covetous of each other's land and people. So I think a true federation is out.

Now a loose military coalition. That is possible. The problem is resolving all the border disputes.

If Poland and Ukraine (the two largest E. European nations) don't get along, that sets and bad tone for the whole region.

 

[chris N]

It would seem that the only way that an alliance would work would be if the various countries could iron out enough of their differences so as to face the greater threat whether it would come from the Soviets or the Germans. Czechoslovkia had the knowlege to produce a lot of weapons that would have made all of the difference.

 

[thezerech]

Why. Not just have the pod earlier, i was thinking of doing tl about this including Basil the Embroided. the pod can start earlier. perhaps in the very founding of the hetmanat. Then the "main" pod can be either the twelfth battle of the isonzo or "conrads punishment expedition." It could plunge Italy into revolution, Turin will have "Bolshevist/Proletarian" rev. While in the south the peasants could revolt. Most of the soldiers were reported by the officers as "not knowing what they were fighting for." With Austria no longer distracted, the allies plans would be totally screwed up. That could allow for Austria to place Basil the Embodied on the throne or rid south Ukraine of the Anarchists. If The C. Powers create Bylorussian, Lithuanian, Kurlander/latvian, estonian, and Ukrainian nations to guard against Bolsheviks. That could allow them to form real gov'ts. When the C. Powers inevitably collapse i predict poland, Lithuania, etc. moving against c. Powers for Silesia, and Klaipeda plus other areas. Lithuania would have Midougas the II as king, perhaps Byelorussia would be Menshevik. Cossacks of the don could go to the Ukraine, while kuban in independent/puppet of Ukraine. The Bolsheviks would be weak plus, lets take away the LEft socialist revs and other party support. Making them solely focus on Russia. In Ukraine it could form another "Little Entente" or join the existing one countering both polish and magyar nationalism. Led by Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia,Ukraine and Romainia. They could sign an "alternate Molotov-Ribbentrop." Leading them fighting the great patriotic war against soviets. After that Germany wouldn't ally due to "living space bs" Ukraine could crush Soviets, and back stab Hitler. Recreating the german empire and putting habsburgs onto various european thrones. Or the l. Entente could intevene with czechoslovakia. Fighting ger. please don't steal my ideas, i want to write a tl.

 

[CalBear]

Necro = locked.