Independent Sardinia, Naples and Sicily before 17th century?

As you may know, the italian kingdoms of Sardinia, Naples and Sicily became subjects under the crown of Aragon during 15th and early 16th centuries.

I want to know from you how could've history turned during 16th century in order to make these three nations independent from Aragon/Spain (as one single kindgom, or Naples-Sicily and Sardinia, or Sardinia-Sicily and Naples, or as three separate entities, whatever) before 17th century.

Once I've read here in a topic that if Holy Emperor Charles had other sons besides Philip II, probably he would've ceded Burgundy/Netherlands to the second-born son and the italian kingdoms to the third son (or further sons) if necessary. Do you think that it'd be possible?
 
Well, if Ferrante, duke of Calabria had married Germaine de Foix earlier/someone else entirely - like Eleonore of Burgundy, children could've been designated semi-independent governors.

Alternately, he had two younger brothers, who could likewise marry and produce heirs to maintain Naples' independent.
 
Well, if Ferrante, duke of Calabria had married Germaine de Foix earlier/someone else entirely - like Eleonore of Burgundy, children could've been designated semi-independent governors.

Alternately, he had two younger brothers, who could likewise marry and produce heirs to maintain Naples' independent.

You mean this Ferrante?

Unhappily, however, the problems regarding the sovereignty of the Trastámara-Naples house were beyond only marriage/inheritance, at least at this point of the things. Naples became a satellite state to France and later to Spain, politically and economically. I presume that the starting point of this was the fact that Ferdinand I of Naples was, himself, the result of a liaison between Afonso V of Aragon and a mistress, Girolama Carlino.

Although the most interesting POD to avert Naples' subjection to Aragon would be making Ferdinand I a son not of Girolama, but of Maria of Castile, Afonso's legitimate wife.

However, does anyone here have an interesting idea to make Naples/Sicily/Sardinia independent after the birth of the still illegitimate Ferdinand? Bonus oints if not related to marriage politics.
 
You mean this Ferrante?

Unhappily, however, the problems regarding the sovereignty of the Trastámara-Naples house were beyond only marriage/inheritance, at least at this point of the things. Naples became a satellite state to France and later to Spain, politically and economically. I presume that the starting point of this was the fact that Ferdinand I of Naples was, himself, the result of a liaison between Afonso V of Aragon and a mistress, Girolama Carlino.

Although the most interesting POD to avert Naples' subjection to Aragon would be making Ferdinand I a son not of Girolama, but of Maria of Castile, Afonso's legitimate wife.

However, does anyone here have an interesting idea to make Naples/Sicily/Sardinia independent after the birth of the still illegitimate Ferdinand? Bonus oints if not related to marriage politics.

what about the Angevins being more successful against the Aragonese? Or what about the duc de Guise's 17c Neapolitan Adventure being seen as less of a flight of fancy and more on the scale of the Portuguese Independence War?
 
what about the Angevins being more successful against the Aragonese? Or what about the duc de Guise's 17c Neapolitan Adventure being seen as less of a flight of fancy and more on the scale of the Portuguese Independence War?

I really wonder what was the Angevin claim through which Louis XII and later Henry II Guise fought for the Neapolitan crown. Meddling the Portuguese War with this seems a good idea, imagine how painful would it be to Spain to lose not only Portugal, but the mediterranean kingdoms? I wonder how would it be done, however.
 
I really wonder what was the Angevin claim through which Louis XII and later Henry II Guise fought for the Neapolitan crown. Meddling the Portuguese War with this seems a good idea, imagine how painful would it be to Spain to lose not only Portugal, but the mediterranean kingdoms? I wonder how would it be done, however.

Simply make France more interested in gaining Naples for Queen Christina, AFAIR she was going to be queen, but then France made peace with Spain and the idea folded like a cheap suit. Christina was also obliged to leave the crown to a prince of the French king's choosing.
 
Simply make France more interested in gaining Naples for Queen Christina, AFAIR she was going to be queen, but then France made peace with Spain and the idea folded like a cheap suit. Christina was also obliged to leave the crown to a prince of the French king's choosing.

Christina? I'm afraid to say that I can't remember a Queen named like at the time.

However, if the conquest by the Aragonese is inevitable, as I said in the first post, a clash between Philip II and hypothetical full-brothers he had by Chales V and Isabella of Portugal probably would make arise the need of dividing the inheritance more equally.

Funnily enough, checking Isabella's bio there were indeed other two male sons from her that didn't survive childhood: John and Ferdinand. I believe that the second eldest one would claim the kingdoms if he could, and the younger would be left with Burgundy. This would be important even to avert, maybe, the Dutch Revolt. I have already suggested this scenario of abundance of sons in another thread that I started (and flopped), but everyone claimed it was impossible, but they didn't give me much stronger reasons than the fact that Charles V would claim for himself all of the crowns he possessed, being unable to abdicate in favour to other brothers he had beyond Ferdinand.

Would it still be the case here, how with Philip?

Also, something I have always wondered about was how could the Republic of Genoa manage to survive being absolutely surrounded by duchies, marquisates and kingdoms as it was. With an hypothetical heir claiming Sardinia, what about Corsica and Genoa?
 
Christina, the famous Girl-King of Sweden, abdicated, converted to Catholicism and seriously entertained the idea of becoming queen of Naples when the crown was offered to her by the French.
 
Also, both D. Felipe II's brothers died as a result of epileptic seizures AFAIK. But assuming at least one survives another problem opens up. Where/who do they marry? The Reformation had already cut the potential Habsburg brides by half, and there was also a tendency to let younger sons take minor orders.
 
Christina, the famous Girl-King of Sweden, abdicated, converted to Catholicism and seriously entertained the idea of becoming queen of Naples when the crown was offered to her by the French.

Oh, I thought about that Christina haha I'm sorry, I thought you were still talking about 16th century. I didn't know this particular detail, I'll have to look it further.

This would be a very insteresting POD, if she seized the crowns not only of Naples but also of Poland. She would be almost a female Charles V, with territories scattered over Europe.
 

Vitruvius

Donor
what about the Angevins being more successful against the Aragonese? Or what about the duc de Guise's 17c Neapolitan Adventure being seen as less of a flight of fancy and more on the scale of the Portuguese Independence War?

I too immediately thought of Guise, or Christina of Sweden or another French candidate. Which is why I struggle with the OP to find a 16th century POD. It just seems that once Alfonso V of Aragon gains control Naples is too entangled with Aragon. But keeping the Trastamaras out requires an earlier POD and after that you have to wait until the 17th century when Spain is weak enough for Naples to break away. I don't see Charles V partitioning the Spanish portion of his inheritance even if he had three sons. Burgundy to a second son, sure it was originally separate, but dividing up the Aragonese inheritance seems like a stretch. More likley would be the third son gets Milan or maybe best case Naples but more likely still he just enters the church and is made the Cardinal Archbishop of Toledo or something like that.

In terms of the Angevin claim, and this gets into a lot of marriage politics, but the Angevin claim that Charles Le Maine willed to Louis XI technically died out when Charles VIII and his sisters failed to produce heirs. Since the claim was willed to Louis as the son of Charles' aunt Marie d'Anjou I suppose you could argue it would pass to the descendents of Marie's eldest daughter, Yolande of France, namely her daughter Anne of Savoy who married none other than Frederick IV of Naples. So his children really do have the best claims by the 16th century, both the 'French' and 'Spanish' sides would at least theoretically have the same claimant claiming both the Trastamara claim from Ferrante and the Angevin claim from Marie d'Anjou. Obviously it didn't work out so well OTL. Ferdinand, Duke of Calabria, was sidelined in favor of Ferdinand of Aragon and Louis XII essentially invented a legal fiction that he inherited Charles VIII's claim simply because he followed him on the French throne. So if maybe Calabria's sister Charlotte did marry Cesare Borgia, someone who would be much more aggressive in asserting the claim we could get a Borgia on the Neapolitan throne. This would technically be a 15th century POD but it would be at the tail end. And it would completely alter the Italian wars but that would be necessary anyways.

Or alternatively Charlotte marries as OTL, but her daughter Anne de Laval marries Louis of Vaudemont, younger son of the Duke of Lorraine who represented the other Angevin claim, through Rene d'Anjou's daughter Yolande. He campaigned in Italy with Francis I but died in 1527 at the siege of Naples. Maybe if he abandoned his ecclesiastical carrier earlier he could marry Anne before going to Italy. The Italian Wars could easily play out differently with different figures on the thrones of Milan, Florence and possibly even Naples. So maybe a pro-French Lorraine on the throne of Naples if the campaign went better than OTL. Though its tough because Spain really did have the upper hand in Italy by that point. But it would be interesting to have a third, Italian, branch of the house of Lorraine (the main ducal branch, the French Guise branch and an Italian Neapolitan branch).

Maybe as a stretch, Louis of Vaudemont still dies but has a son with Anne de Laval first. The War of the League of Cognac plays out as OTL. Later When negotiating the Treaty of Crepy with France Charles tried to divide the French house by setting up the Duke of Orleans with a Habsburg bride as Duke of Milan. Suppose when that falls through he marries the Infanta or Archduchess to the young Count of Vaudemont and gives him Naples. It pulls the House of Lorraine into the Habsburg orbit and turns a former French ally into a rival in Italy. The Neapolitan House of Lorraine goes on from there. Obviously these scenarios get more and more tenuous but its a possibility.

As for Sicily and Sardinia I think they're too tightly bound to Aragon for them to break way in the 16th century. You could possibly accomplish something in the late 17th century when Spain is much weaker but I can't see them breaking away in the 16th. Unless of course the Trastamaras just completely die out or Ferdinand II has a son with Germaine de Foix that provokes some kind of inheritance war but even then its hard to see them each separating from who ever ends up with Aragon.
 
Also, both D. Felipe II's brothers died as a result of epileptic seizures AFAIK. But assuming at least one survives another problem opens up. Where/who do they marry? The Reformation had already cut the potential Habsburg brides by half, and there was also a tendency to let younger sons take minor orders.

I don't know if it is all that impossible, after all Mary of Hungary, Isabella of Burgundy and Ferdinand I of Austria, in spite of being grandchildren to the Catholic Monarchs and siblings to Charles V were reportedly touched by the Protestant faith, but they had to forsake it in name of their position.

Then, it's not impossible to think about a POD in which one of those sons converts to Protestantism and triggers the Dutch schism but under Habsburg crown. Probably today all the Benelux region would be united under a single nation, but obviously this erases many other political and social issues of the countries.

I particularly always hated those arranged marriages in which teen girls were non-consensually married to men 20, 30 years older. William the Silent was very trusted by Charles V, maybe one of his sisters would be a suitable bride if an earlier inception of the Kingdom of Belgium takes place. Being Protestant and from a High Rank, it wouldn't be hard for him maybe to make an offer to daughters of Christian III of Denmark or Gustav Vasa of Sweden.

About the Sardinian-Neapolitan-Sicilian king, probably a marriage to a daughter of Charles III of Savoy (if any of them survived past infancy) or maybe Mantuan and Tuscanian princesses would earn the trust and support from local rulers.
 
OoC: Did the Angevin claim favor male-line succession, or is that merely a French construct?

As I always understood it, succession ran:
René I, duc d'Anjou
Jean, duc de Lorraine
Nicolas I, duc de Lorraine
Charles, comte du Maine et Provence
Marguerite d'Anjou
Edward of Westminster, Prince of Wales
Violante d'Anjou, comtesse de Vaudemont
House of Lorraine-Vaudemont
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Well considering that the Angevin claim of Louis II of Anjou and Provence (Rene and Marie d'Anjou's father) came by way of his father's adoption by Joan I I think the rules were pretty flexible and open to interpretation. The direct male line descent from Charles I d'Anjou died out with Ladislaus of Naples. Louis II was Duke of Anjou through his great-great Grandmother Margaret d'Anjou, daughter of Charles II of Naples and wife of Charles of Valois and mother of Philip VI of France. This latter house of Anjou was patrilinealy Valois. So their claims to Naples through the female line were behind the other descendents of the sons of Charles II of Naples and came only from the act of adoption by Charles II's great granddaughter, Joan I. But Naples passed to the Durazzo line of the first house of Anjou despite the adoption and Valois-Angevin claims.

The Durazzo line was descended from one of Charles II's younger sons so a male line claim. On the other hand Charles III of Naples (Durazzo) was also married to his first cousin Margaret of Durazzo who was the daughter of Maria of Calabria the younger sister of Joan I, so a female line claim jus uxoris. Again a lot of overlapping claims and ambiguity. Though their line died out with Joan II so the issue remains unsettled and Louis III put forward his line as the rightful Angevin claimant.

The way I understand it the Angevin claim diverged again in the 1480s due to French politics. With the death of Rene d'Anjou without male heirs Lorraine passed to his daughter Yolande's husband, Frederick of Vaudemont, but Provence passed to his nephew Charles le Maine who was also Duke of Anjou. Charles in turned willed Provence and the Neapolitan claim to Louis XI of France, who was his first cousin as son of his Aunt Marie d'Anjou. So its arguable which way the Neapolitan claim should have gone; via Yolande to Lorraine or via Marie/Louis to France. For political reasons I don't think the Lorraines ever pressed the claim seriously during the Italian wars. Besides Charles le Maine had a sister who would at least de jure inherit the claim before Louis but she was bypassed by Charles' will. I believe her descendents are in the Rohan family by way of her marriage to the Armagnac Duke of Nemours. None of her sons ever seemed to press a claim to Naples and certainly never to Provence. But again considering that the Neapolitan claim of the Valois-Anjou came to them through an act of adoption it seems reasonable that it could be disposed of through a Will (another legal act apart from normal rules of inheritance). Though it seems a bit of a stretch for Louis XII to claim he inherited Charles VIII's claim in any real way since there was no will in that case and he was not a descendent of Maria d'Anjou.

So I thought if Frederick and Yolande's grandson Louis of Vaudemont married Anne of Laval it really consolidates a lot of competing claims. But he's still too weak to take Naples from Spain and France isn't likely interested in putting him on a throne they covet for themselves. Hence the last POD I posited whereby just maybe Charles V offers Louis' hypothetical son Naples if he marries a Habsburg and in essence switches sides and defects from the French camp. Though its still really a stretch.
 
I can see Charles V 'offering' Provence, he did so IOTL to the duke of Bourbon.
However I can't see him granting parts of his inheritance to someone not a member of his house.

For instance Charles V did contemplate to grant the 'Burgundian Inheritance' to his daughter Mart, but she was married to his nephew Maximilian, who was the son of his brother Ferdinand; so if that would have happened, then it would have remained within the family.
 
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As I've tried to work out in another thread, the latest POD to "save" the Neapolitan kingdom from Aragonese rule is during the reign if Joanna I. That is, unless the Urgells win out in Aragon, relegating the local Trastamaras to Naples, and due to geography remaining outside of the Castilian orbit.
 
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