Independent Michigan

In 1830's American there was a contraversey between the Michigan Terratory and the state of Ohio, They disagreed strongley over were the border between the two should be. In 1835 Michigan first voted down a statehood proposal that excepted Ohios border proposal. For practical political reasons a second convention took place that gave them the answers they wanted. Wile the second one was probabley illegal. Supose Michigan stayed out of the United States? What do America, Ohio and British in North America do?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Michigin is even poorer than in OTL. The UP ends up being part of ATL's Wisconsin.

Really doubt it, Micigans poverty are a rather new thing, after the collapse of much US traditional industries, if it survive it's going to be quite a rich country, through when 1st world economies begin it transition from industrial to information socities, it will have some trouble to adapt, but Germany, UK, Sweden, Luxembourg and Belgium did succeded in adapting.
 
Really doubt it, Micigans poverty are a rather new thing, after the collapse of much US traditional industries, if it survive it's going to be quite a rich country, through when 1st world economies begin it transition from industrial to information socities, it will have some trouble to adapt, but Germany, UK, Sweden, Luxembourg and Belgium did succeded in adapting.

Well it all depends on what terms Michigan has with the US and Canada. Michigan could do very well if it survives and assumes the roll of being a middleman between the two powers, and as the gatekeeper of the great lakes. If it gets two big for its britches, either power could conceivable snuff it out..

Now this Michigan would lack the benefits it enjoyed in our time line from being part of the enormous American market. The UP and its wealth of copper, timber, and furs would be stripped from it. Likewise its industrial development would be greatly hampered by it needing to import American coal and iron ore. Without industry, Michigan will be starved of much of the massive immigration it experienced in OTL.

Because of this, I'd imagine the an independent Michigan would be poorer than it was in OTL.
 
In 1830's American there was a contraversey between the Michigan Terratory and the state of Ohio, They disagreed strongley over were the border between the two should be. In 1835 Michigan first voted down a statehood proposal that excepted Ohios border proposal. For practical political reasons a second convention took place that gave them the answers they wanted. Wile the second one was probabley illegal. Supose Michigan stayed out of the United States? What do America, Ohio and British in North America do?

The political pressure within the territory for Michigan to join the Union will continue growing even if the compromise (renouncing the claim upon the "Toledo Strip" in exchange for the western 3/4 of the UP, as the eastern most 1/4 was already part of the territory) is rejected. Michigan will eventually become a state. There was no desire to stay out of the United States or become an independent nation. Oh, BTW, the conventions to ratify the compromise were held in 1836, the 1st in late September and the 2nd in mid December. Also, please do look up meepy's "Third Pistol" TL. I gived it 2 thumbs up.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Well it all depends on what terms Michigan has with the US and Canada. Michigan could do very well if it survives and assumes the roll of being a middleman between the two powers, and as the gatekeeper of the great lakes. If it gets two big for its britches, either power could conceivable snuff it out..

Now this Michigan would lack the benefits it enjoyed in our time line from being part of the enormous American market. The UP and its wealth of copper, timber, and furs would be stripped from it. Likewise its industrial development would be greatly hampered by it needing to import American coal and iron ore. Without industry, Michigan will be starved of much of the massive immigration it experienced in OTL.

Because of this, I'd imagine the an independent Michigan would be poorer than it was in OTL.

It would also have the benefit of not being part of USA, some of the reason for Michigans trouble today are because its part of USA. If Michigan had been a independent country, the money made from it industries would to a large degree have been invested back into the country, and it wouldn't have seen such a large degree of migration away after deindustrialisation, more of the better off population would have stayed and tried improve their country, rather than in OTL just moving to another state, plus the Michigan could have adopted policies to better deal with the collapse of their industry, which USA didn't. So luikely we would see a Michigan which was poorer in 19th century but richer today, if it had become independent.
 
The way I see it (and I have done quite a bit of research into the subject), the only way for an economically strong Michigan to develop and persist is for it to neutralize both American and British threats to it's sovereignty soon after independence.

This can be done in two ways.

Firstly, Michigan could have trained and maintained a supremely competent (yet relatively small) land army, and use it to prop up Canadian rebels in the 1836 Upper Canada Rebellion. From there they could use any territorial acquisitions to further strengthen their army. If they then managed to decisively defeat the USA's inevitable grab for the Lower Peninsula, they should be able to remain independent at least until the close of the American Civil War. If Michigan's leadership assisted the winning side in the ACW, the Americans will likely support Michigan's continued independence. The British will always be a threat, but once Canada becomes an established entity, they would be unlikely to directly threaten Michigan again.

This way is very unlikely, and would probably require the existence of several military, diplomatic, and political geniuses that have been overlooked by history. Since this way seems to make for a more interesting read, I have been using it in my timeline.

The other (more realistic) course would be for Michigan to quickly build and train a competent Navy on the Great Lakes, with the capability to defend the crucial port of Toledo if need be. So long as Michigan maintains control of the Great Lakes, it possesses a huge bargaining chip - and a means to play the British and Americans off of each other. As long as that naval dominance in the Great Lakes (hell, even just one or two of them) will almost assure Michigan's independence into Modern Day.
 
It would also have the benefit of not being part of USA, some of the reason for Michigans trouble today are because its part of USA.

What you're failing to realize is that Michigan was industrialized because it was part of the US. As an independent country, the prospects for that industrialization are very much in doubt.

Leaving aside the copper and timber of the Upper Peninsular, because an independent Michigan would very likely not own the UP, Michigan has none of the natural resources required for 19th industrialization.

As Meepy correctly points out, other than farm land Michigan's only "resource" is it's location. It lays "between" the coal of Pennsylvania and the iron ore of Minnesota so, with mills and factories in Michigan, the transportation routes for one to the other didn't have to be as lengthy.

You should also note that Michigan's industrialization took place decades after industrialization of other regions in the US because of the transportation systems that needed to be built up. If Michigan were outside the US, the existing borders would make the transportation of the raw materials across them less desirable and the "middle point" between Minnesota's ore and Pennsylvania's coal would be elsewhere within the United States.

An independent Michigan's only actual resource would be the St. Clair river between Lake Huron and Lake Erie and, if the Canadian border remains the same, Michigan's control of that tiny waterway would not be complete.

If Michigan had been a independent country, the money made from it industries...

Those industries would not exist in the types and quantities they did if Michigan were not an integral part of the US industrial system.

... it wouldn't have seen such a large degree of migration away after deindustrialisation...

Without industrialization, Michigan wouldn't have seen as large a degree of internal immigration as it did in the OTL so there wouldn't be the population which is supposedly migrating away after de-industrialization.

Thanks to the industrialization it's place within the US allowed, Michigan saw huge increases in population during the 20th Century. Also, because foreign immigration was limited after the 1920s, Michigan's population growth was due to internal migration within the US. Between 1910 and 1930, Michigan's population grew over 30%, thanks to almost wholly to an internal US migration an independent and lesser industrialized Michigan would not receive. After slumping during the Great Depression, Michigan's population again grew by over 20% between 1940 and 1960. Again from internal US migration an independent Michigan would not receive.

Finally, with regards to the so-called migration away from Michigan, even with that state's de-industrialization, it's population actually continues to grow. The real difference being felt is that Michigan's population growth is no where near as massive. For nearly seventy years, Michigan's annual population growth averaged over 16% and that amazing performance was looked upon as "normal". Detroit may be a nearly abandoned Rust Belt city, but that has to do with factors beyond de-industrialization and Michigan's actual overall population is still increasing.

So luikely we would see a Michigan which was poorer in 19th century but richer today, if it had become independent.

Because an independent Michigan would not experience the industrialization and subsequent migration seen in the OTL, it would be poorer in this time line's 19th Century, 20th Century, and 21 Century than it was in the OTL. An independent Michgan will be a specialty agricultural producer, tourist destination, toll keeper, and little else.
 
If Michigan were an independent nation, it would not have developed as the preeminent center of the auto industry, or the preeminent center of any other type of heavy industry. Period. At the time that the automobile industry got established, it was standard policy to impose huge tariffs on the importation of any products that could be produced in the United States. For example, before the infamous Smoot-Hawley tariff went into effect, during the Roaring 20s, the average tarriff was 38.5%. Henry Ford famously attacked these tariffs as being too high, because it caused foreign countries to impose similarly high tariffs on Ford automobiles, making it impossible for Ford to expand overseas.

So where would the auto industry go ITTL? It's hard to say because of all the butterflies. But if we were to assume that the stream of time keeps flowing as close to OTL as possible, then it's worth nothing that Ransom Olds is from Cleveland, Ohio; Albert Fisher is from Huron County, Ohio; John Williams Stoddard is from Dayton, Ohio; the Pope-Toledo was made in Toledo, Ohio; Charles F. Kettering was from Dayton; Walter Flanders was in Cleveland when he left to join Ford; Oliver Parker Fritchle was born in Holmes County, Ohio; the Dayton Engineering Laboratories company became AC Delco; Maxwell automobile had one of its first plants in Dayton; and the Coats Steam Car was made in Columbus, Ohio. You see where I'm going with this? ;)
 
Because an independent Michigan would not experience the industrialization and subsequent migration seen in the OTL, it would be poorer in this time line's 19th Century, 20th Century, and 21 Century than it was in the OTL. An independent Michgan will be a specialty agricultural producer, tourist destination, toll keeper, and little else.

Basicly, Michigan would become the American Denmark.
 
Basicly, Michigan would become the American Denmark.


Exactly.

An American Denmark whose far more larger, far more powerful neighbors, Canada and the US, allow it to "control" the St. Clair River because neither one wants the other to control the St. Clair River.
 
Tomb said:
Basicly, Michigan would become the American Denmark.

Exactly.

An American Denmark whose far more larger, far more powerful neighbors, Canada and the US, allow it to "control" the St. Clair River because neither one wants the other to control the St. Clair River.

Short of near divine intervention-level luck and skill, this is a very good description for what would probably occur.
 
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