Independent Bavaria after the first world war?

I read about Bavarian nationalism, and that there were some proposals to secede and re-establish an independent Bavaria after the first world war. This certainly seems like a way Bavarians could possibly have avoided the harsh punishment the rest of Germany faced. It would certainly have changed the second world war and Germany by large.

However I'm not too familiar also.

I'm wondering should this state have formed after WW1, would it have been free from reparations? What other effects might it have had? Would it have prevented a certain Austria's rise to power? Certainly something this significant would radically change the second world war and the twentieth century at large.

Are there any timelines anyone is familiar with that feature an independent Bavaria?
 
First off, while hella old, there is this timeline that explores such a possibility: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/bavarian-rhapsody-the-wittelsbach-restored.356160/

Secondly, as a contradictory to this, I don't know if any such proposals were taken seriously, afaik.

But if it did get taken seriously, I don't think it would be free of reparations, though if anything, I think their reparations would be greatly reduced vs. Germany, and like the other Central Powers outside of Germany would be largely eliminated altogether.

Would it have prevented a certain Austrian's rise to power? Butterflies aside, he'd be even more adamant in coming to power, an independent Bavaria would definitely be a priority target for Anschluss (and would be a definitive opponent for whomever runs Bavaria, assuming its a monarchy (as in that TL) or its own republic. But again, with Butterflies in play here, there's no guarantee the Nazis could come to power, it's just as likely Germany falls to a military dictatorship.
 
Much depends on how plausible Bavarian independence can be. Does it have authentic mass support? Or is it as fake as France's Rhineland state?

Would an independent Bavaria be economically viable? I have no idea, though I suspect a Bavaria removed from the Germany common market will take a hit.
 
If Bavaria secedes just before end of the war it hardly is going avoid reparations and some other hardsh punishments. Check Hungary. It wasn't independent and still faced extremely harsh terms.
 
They only possible ways I can personally see Bavaria regaining and retaining independence is if the allies somehow place it in as some sort of condition for the German surrender.
Also doubt the Bavarian Soviet Republic could survive long before being annexed or invaded from multiple directions.
 
The best option for an independent Bavaria (IMO) would be to have Hitler die in the Great War. If history goes the same (ie defeat o0f the Germans, fall of the Wittelsbach, and Bavarian Soviet) Gustav Ritter von Kahr and his support could lead to a Wittelsbach restoration. I say this because of his allies controlling the Reichswehr in Bavaria and the Bavarian State Police. They also commanded large support in the Freikorps who infested Bavaria post WW1 and without Hitler (and his failure at the Beer Hall Putsch) they would have no one to ruin their plans.
 

Venocara

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An independent Bavaria would only even be a slight possibility if one of these things happened:

  1. The Entente had been forced to push to Berlin (i.e. no armistice on the 11/11/18)
  2. The Russians weren't incompetent and they were able to march to Berlin
  3. The Americans had had a reason to advocate for the break up of Germany (such as a chemical attack on London perhaps?)
  4. The Russians hadn't turned Communist AND one of the above.
If Bavaria was given independence, it is likely that Germany would have been broken up into its constituent states (pre-1870). It is very unlikely that just Bavaria would have been given independence.
 

raharris1973

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Check Hungary. It wasn't independent and still faced extremely harsh terms.

Were they charged monetary reparations, or just territorial amputation?

Also doubt the Bavarian Soviet Republic could survive long before being annexed or invaded from multiple directions.

The Communist route is definitely not the realistic way to go.

--I think it could be done if the Bavarians become pessimistic about Germany's long-term prospects and if the Bavarians can get exempted from reparations as part of the deal.

The Bavarians declare independence, and the reparations committee declares that the entire German reparations obligation falls on what remains of Germany.

Notably, independent Bavaria with its traditional borders would include the exclave of the Palatinate. That makes an independent Bavaria even more desirable for France, since this provides a territorial buffer between Lorraine and Germany to the east of French-occupied Saar. A prompt end to the Entente (French) occupation of Bavarian Palatinate could be part of the incentive for Bavaria to separate itself from Germany. Perhaps this is codified by Bavaria becoming an independent late signer of Versailles that agrees to an added proviso that Bavaria and Germany will not unite without the agreement of the powers (mirroring the clause on Austria).
 
My question is, which part of Bavaria were most supportive of Bavarian Nationalism? I think it's plausible that Catholic Bavaria could be carved off while Franconia and Palatinate (which is catholic, yes, but faces contiguity issues) remain part of Germany.

Meanwhile Bavarian nationalists were interested in grabbing South Tyrol and Upper Austria, and the South Tyrolese were pretty into the idea of joining Bavaria. Meanwhile Vorarlberg, seeing itself isolated, was pretty into the idea of joining Switzerland.

upload_2019-7-15_19-29-32.png
 

Deleted member 1487

I read about Bavarian nationalism, and that there were some proposals to secede and re-establish an independent Bavaria after the first world war. This certainly seems like a way Bavarians could possibly have avoided the harsh punishment the rest of Germany faced. It would certainly have changed the second world war and Germany by large.

However I'm not too familiar also.

I'm wondering should this state have formed after WW1, would it have been free from reparations? What other effects might it have had? Would it have prevented a certain Austria's rise to power? Certainly something this significant would radically change the second world war and the twentieth century at large.

Are there any timelines anyone is familiar with that feature an independent Bavaria?
There was the Bavarian Soviet Republic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic
Didn't survive the Freikorps though.
 
Just looking over Herbert Hoover's memoirs... The French were very pro-carving up Germany back into its original states and were actively supporting separatist movements. The Americans, read the Wilson administration, were not because they were worried about instability leading to another war. It's pretty clear Bavarian nationalism was very popular, left and right, even Protestants in the north would remember a more peaceful time free of Prussian militarism.

If Wilson died of a stroke before negotiating the treaty, which he took extraordinary personal interest in, who knows what Europe might have looked like...

As a side note, He-who-shall-not-be-named first got noticed by the DAP after he chewed out a speaker who was proposing a pro-French Catholic-majority German state.
 
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With Theodore Roosevelt as President the USA would enter the War early, but keep out mostly Versailles talks letting British diplomats do most of the job

Under those circumstance it likely that German map is radical change
The British wanted to restore the kingdom of Hanover (there Royal family descended from there) as counter balance to Kingdom Prussian.
The French had several proposal to brake up imperial Germany
And Belgians wanted allot more of Germany as OTL

so independent Bavaria could be realistic
It could serve as Buffer state for France special the Bavarian exclave of Palatinate (today part of the German federal state of Rhineland-Palatinate)
 
With Theodore Roosevelt as President the USA would enter the War early, but keep out mostly Versailles talks letting British diplomats do most of the job

Under those circumstance it likely that German map is radical change
The British wanted to restore the kingdom of Hanover (there Royal family descended from there) as counter balance to Kingdom Prussian.
The French had several proposal to brake up imperial Germany
And Belgians wanted allot more of Germany as OTL

so independent Bavaria could be realistic
It could serve as Buffer state for France special the Bavarian exclave of Palatinate (today part of the German federal state of Rhineland-Palatinate)

Wouldn't much earlier enter of USA to the war end that much earlier so there wouldn't be so harsh peace terms?
 
This ties with pre 1900 history with Austria forming an sphere of influence which includes Bavaria (and southern Germany generally) and post WW! leaves this as a Germanic Greater Austria with the Hungarian/Slav etc. parts going off as IOTL. Prussia already had a grip on the North. So a North Germany and a South Germany. Interwar politics would be about unification or independence between the two.
 
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