Inca Wank

How can the Incan way of life, not necessarily the empire, spread as far as possible? The Incas had the most potential to resist European colonists, animals, immunity from their animals, potatoes AND maize, and an efficient government. The Incas just had the bad luck to meet the conquistadors right after a civil war. Proof that OTL wanks white people:D
 
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scholar

Banned
How can the Incan way of life, not necessarily the empire, spread as far as possible? The Incas had the most potential to resist European colonists, animals, immunity from their animals, potatoes AND maize, and an efficient government. The Incas just had the bad luck to meet the conquistadors right after a civil war. Proof that OTL wanks white people
OTL only favors white people after 1500, and even then it takes a good 200-300 years before the northern Europeans dominate.

The easiest way to have this occur is to have the invasion occur a few decades when it occurred in OTL. Not only did this occur at a time of disastrous civil war, but the various plagues began to hit them before the people arrived. If they are allowed to complete their initial waves and the empire is put back together they have a better chance. The INCA won plenty of battles against the Spaniards, its just that a 100,000 would go in and 100,000 would be dead or dying. There were plenty of diseases that influenced the Europeans that arrived, most of them died or got sick. Any expedition could easily be pushed back or cancelled because of that. You just need the right person to get sick.
 
In my (mostly uneducated opinion) what really killed the Inca was both the civil wars and the uprising of other peoples conquered by the empire. You can't butterfly away disease but, if there's a single clear sucessor to the throne, a unified Inca Empire can repel the spanish invasion easily. Whetever would they survive the mass collapse of their society by disease would be another matter, but their chances would increase highly.

In my opinion, later contact with the Inca would be somewhat similar to contact with Ming China; a huge, rich empire closed to outsiders.
 
Perhaps a disease similar to smallpox and cow pox develops that is native to South America and uses llamas as vectors?
 
A meteor hits Europe and Manco Cápac eventually defeats the conquistadors. Takes their technology and horses and the Inca eventually replace what the Spanish Empire would have become. It eventually collapses as do all empires, but it's language, religion, and overall culture lives on to influence the Americas and beyond to the present day.
 
I was actually working on a thought experiment-essay on this topic about two months ago and I came to the conclusion that there are actually at least two basic ways the Inka could succeed without going into ASB territory.

First: Have Wayna Qhapaq not make the mistake with Tawantinsuyu that Diocletian made with Rome and designate a clear line of succession. Thus: No civil war, stronger central government, less possible allies for the Spanish, Pizarro and his force are captured and by the time any Spanish come back the Inka will already have some horses and crossbows at the very least. This is what would have happened had...

Second: Atawallpa simply decides to have his army disarm and capture Pizarro's force and makes them teach his Amawta (scholars) of their knowledge.

Finally, going back a bit further, if one introduces Old World Diseases significantly before the Westerners come either via the Malian expedition of Abu Bakr II or through the Norse, in either case having contact be temporary enough to prevent the Mandinka or, less likely, the Norse from subjugating the Americas but just long enough to introduce Afro-Eurasian diseases, then one could have Chimor resist the Spanish with rather great ease.
 
The Norse are useful to north americans, but I was thinking of having smallpox introduced directly to te Incas so it could develop into llamapox.
 
The Norse are useful to north americans, but I was thinking of having smallpox introduced directly to te Incas so it could develop into llamapox.

...I am glad that you are curious about doing an alternate NA timeline, but believe me when I say that introducing smallpox so it can become llamapox will not help the Inca and honestly this entire post does not make much sense.

Victory conditions for the Inca are, ultimately, that they retain their empire and political independence from the Spanish. This is actually not that hard, at least compared to many other Native American groups. The Inca were more remote and in a more difficult to reach location. I second Oba: the best way for the Inca to resist the Spanish is to have a clear line of succession, but more importantly have this going out several degrees (so there is a clear, designated 5th in line for the throne, etc.) so that disease does not cut the line of succession and so throw the polity into chaos.

With political succession in place, the Inca need to use this political order to resist the Spanish. Again, this is quite possible-the Inca are numerous and in high, easily defensible mountains. They may lose control of their coast to colonizers, but the mountain heartlands can be kept out of Spanish control (and the Spanish may very well decide that the jungles and deserts of South America's Pacific coast are not worth controlling anyway if they can't control the gold mines in the Andes). The Inca must both militarily resist the Spanish but also adapt some European technology for long-term success-perhaps acquiring guns and a captured gun smith during a failed conquista. With this, the Inca will be able to maintain at least a large portion of their empire, using guns and terrain to fight off would-be European colonizers.

Of course, I should mention Guns of the Tuwantansayu. This excellent timeline looked at almost this exact scenario, though it had the Incan empire expanding post-colonization, which IMHO is extremely unlikely to happen even with the best of conditions.
 
Of course, I should mention Guns of the Tuwantansayu. This excellent timeline looked at almost this exact scenario, though it had the Incan empire expanding post-colonization, which IMHO is extremely unlikely to happen even with the best of conditions.
I disagree that the Inka could not have expanded after first contact (it would not have been colonization if the Spanish could not conquer the empire). I find this to be the case for the following reasons:

  • When Pizarro's gang landed on its coast, Tawantinsuyu was the largest empire on the face of the globe.
  • The Tawantinsuyu had a vastly more advanced socioeconomic system - it was vastly more organized than any state in Europe and even rivalled the Ottoman, Muġal and Ming Empires in its advanced social safety net, economic planning system, its ability to levy the masses for state projects. Europe was nowhere near this level of civic development in the 16th century.
  • Quite simply, the Inka People as a whole had an overall vastly superior quality of life when contrasted to their contemporary Iberian counterparts - and in many critical ways had superior technology - Inka medicine, sanitation, textiles, communications and transportation immediately spring to mind.
  • Guns, you say (please note my rhetorical style here)? Even when well-acquainted with later and superior firearms, many people saw them as but shock devices at most and preferred the stock as a well-made club! Such was the case with the Peoples of the Northeastern Woodlands well into the 18th century and the Zulu in the 19th Century. Also, the slow-loading, inaccurate and unreliable harkbuses of Pizarro's Spain would be of little use against a large Inka force and the Inka could field up to one hundred thousand soldiers on the battlefield at a time thanks to a logistical infrastructure on a scale the Spanish - even in Spain - simply lacked. Finally, even when guns get better, the the Inka will certainly have quite a few of their own and be able to keep up with the Spanish and, for that matter, the Muġals and Chinese (both of which had superior gunpowder weapons well into the 18th century, BTW).
  • Germs, right? Even in OTL, the Empire did not collapse from diseases really but rather from Spanish luck and a few unfortunate moves made by Atawallpa (AKA meet without armed guards with the armed Spanish in person away from the capital); with Malian transmission of Afro-Eurasian diseases - or with a clear line of succession from Wayna Qhapaq - no Civil War and thus not nearly a weak enough Inka state to be brought down by Spain.
  • What about Steel? Leaving aside the fact that one thousand steel swords and a few crossbows plus a handful of harkbuses are a death wish when pitted against one hundred thousand bronze maces, bone-tipped spears and pebble-shooting wool slings, the Inka could learn of ferrous metallurgy from Spanish POWs. They were the first to smelt platinum, which has a far higher melting point.
 
I disagree that the Inka could not have expanded after first contact (it would not have been colonization if the Spanish could not conquer the empire).

In the face of the epidemics-which will come, although they will come more slowly than OTL-the Inca will lose a lot of population, which will take away both their ability and their desire to expand. Defending themselves is the best they can do, and like I said that is a victory condition for them.

[*]When Pizarro's gang landed on its coast, Tawantinsuyu was the largest empire on the face of the globe.
I.E. stretched near the breaking point, and unable to project power any further than they already had. Northern Chile and southern Colombia were as far as they were going to go, even without the social destabilization and political chaos caused by plagues.

[*]The Tawantinsuyu had a vastly more advanced socioeconomic system - it was vastly more organized than any state in Europe and even rivalled the Ottoman, Muġal and Ming Empires in its advanced social safety net, economic planning system, its ability to levy the masses for state projects. Europe was nowhere near this level of civic development in the 16th century.

More complex =!= superior. This is true when comparing European peoples to Native Americans, and it is true vice versa. Running this kind of economic system produces inefficiencies and problems, and when your bureaucratic class is dying en mass from measles it's particularly hard to make the system work. Keeping the distribution of goods going in the territory they already have is going to be massively difficult, let alone expanding this system into regions which will be every inch as hostile to them as to the Spanish.

[*]Quite simply, the Inka People as a whole had an overall vastly superior quality of life when contrasted to their contemporary Iberian counterparts - and in many critical ways had superior technology - Inka medicine, sanitation, textiles, communications and transportation immediately spring to mind.

My own timeline, I think, shows my skepticism with claims like this. The Inca did not make sailcloth that pull ships across ocean, nor did they make armor, nor have they conclusively been shown to have writing, which as communications go is the bomb-diggity of civilization. I'm not trying to tear down the Inca, I'm just cautioning against putting them on a pedestal.

[*] Guns, you say (please note my rhetorical style here)? Even when well-acquainted with later and superior firearms, many people saw them as but shock devices at most and preferred the stock as a well-made club! Such was the case with the Peoples of the Northeastern Woodlands well into the 18th century and the Zulu in the 19th Century. Also, the slow-loading, inaccurate and unreliable harkbuses of Pizarro's Spain would be of little use against a large Inka force and the Inka could field up to one hundred thousand soldiers on the battlefield at a time thanks to a logistical infrastructure on a scale the Spanish - even in Spain - simply lacked. Finally, even when guns get better, the the Inka will certainly have quite a few of their own and be able to keep up with the Spanish and, for that matter, the Muġals and Chinese (both of which had superior gunpowder weapons well into the 18th century, BTW).

Here's my problem with claims like this: If guns are so useless, then why were they ever used? Guns pierce armor that an arrow will never even touch, and their psychological effect cannot be understated. "Many people saw them as shock devices"-yes, they did, and they were EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE shock devices. In addition, they don't need to be accurate-as you say, the Inca can field thousands of soldiers. Shoot into a crowd of thousands, and you're bound to hit someone. An aggressive Incan army moving into Spanish territory are going to face some pretty lethal firepower, not just from guns but from cannons as well.


Germs, right? Even in OTL, the Empire did not collapse from diseases really but rather from Spanish luck and a few unfortunate moves made by Atawallpa (AKA meet without armed guards with the armed Spanish in person away from the capital); with Malian transmission of Afro-Eurasian diseases - or with a clear line of succession from Wayna Qhapaq - no Civil War and thus not nearly a weak enough Inka state to be brought down by Spain.

Germs are the reason that the Inca cannot expand post-contact. They will not have a surplus population to expand with, because their numbers will be falling dramatically due to plagues. Europe did not conquer the world while suffering from the Black Death, and neither will the Inca when they're suffering from the Black Death x 2.

[*]What about Steel? Leaving aside the fact that one thousand steel swords and a few crossbows plus a handful of harkbuses are a death wish when pitted against one hundred thousand bronze maces, bone-tipped spears and pebble-shooting wool slings, the Inka could learn of ferrous metallurgy from Spanish POWs. They were the first to smelt platinum, which has a far higher melting point.

I was completely unaware that the Inca could smelt platinum. Interesting. And yes, steel is definitely a useful tool, which in Inca hands will help them resist the Spanish just like guns-but steel is worthless without soldiers to use it, and like I said above the Inca will not have soldiers available to use that steel for conquest (defense is a different matter). By the time their population recovers, Europeans will be well entrenched everywhere else the Inca could expand to, and they will have technological parity plus, in the intervening centuries, will have an effective home turf advantage against Incan invaders.
 
only way:
-delay sspnish invasion for at least 10 to 20 years, to consolidate power in Tawuantisuyo
-possible contact with other european nation (France or England), and setttle comerce agreements
-
or maybe, how about a reconquest, since vilcabamba, like change the tide
 
Actually, the "Inca way of life" did spread beyond the limits of the Inca Empire as the result of the conquest. The Spanish brought Quechua-speaking laborers to the rainforest, where they never settled before and where communities still exist to this day.
 
There are some basic problems with the idea that a “clear line of succession” can be established here. The Inca monarchy was a complicated affair; whoever was nominated by the King, and got the approval of the majority of the nobles, got to be Inca, not necessarily the son of the Qoya (Queen.)

Now, the fundamental problem with establishing a clear line of succession beyond the direct heir in this scenario, is running the risk of perpetual civil war by some prince who knows he’s only two, or three, individuals away from supreme power.

With regards to the point of expansion, others have already mentioned what I think. The empire had stretched to the limits of what was possible to hold. The wars in the north took a generation to complete, as did those to the east against the Chachapoyas, while the conflict in the south against the Mapuches was left inconclusive. Contrary to what some might think, the Inca did not expand on the basis of brute force, crushing everything in their path. In fact, most of their annexations rested on the willing submission of the weaker states. But the most essential part, and that which led to the capitulations, was the “political contract” which was assumed by both parties the moment the conquered peoples became part of the Inca state. “Reciprocity” is the best term to define it here. The Inca state assumed certain obligations towards the ruling class of these nations; in turn they turned over their produce and manpower to the Inca. The workers worked the lands of their people, and those of the state, in turn the Inca guaranteed them protection, and sustenance in case of droughts, natural disasters, etc. Also, the local lords, expected presents, gifts, etc. whenever their military aid was needed. (When Wayna Qhapak refused to give Michi, one of his generals, the customary gifts upon his arrival in Quito, the general threatened to leave the field with his entire force, and head back to Cusco, and even worse, take the beloved war-waka, Wanakauri, with him. Wayna Qhapak, relented and gave in, showering his captains with gold, and else.)

Now, most of this modus vivendi had been in place in the Andes for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. The Incas only magnified the scale of reciprocity. But, beyond the Andes, and its traditional cultural center, this was new and alien, which made the customary method of expansion unsustainable, and as the wars at the ends of the empire show, really, really difficult to achieve.

The only two ways I see for the OP (survival-wise) to achieve its purpose are:

1) Have Ninan Quyuchi survive. (He was the designated heir, but his death shortly before his father’s caused the meltdown.) With Ninan Quyuchi, things continue as always, and you skip the civil war. The plague will come and take its toll, but the state and its infrastructure will stand on better footing. Let’s say that Pizarro arrives with his small band. The aid provided to him from the get-go IOTL will not be present, as the feuds between populations from the civil war will never have happened. If he does land, the Inca will never allow him to come to Cusco, and in fact might not go out of his way to meet them personally; but send someone else instead. Without the Ninan’s security compromised, things might turn ugly for the Spaniards.
If survivors don’t make it back to Panama, it would be a while before more Spaniards attempt anything; at least 10-15 years, during which the Incas can get better acquainted with whatever technology they can get their hands on. Once the Europeans return, you can repeat the same steps; but at some point they might get a foothold, or advance from the north via modern Colombia, which in itself would give the Incas more time to adapt, as they travel though the jungle, hostile smaller tribes, etc.

2) Have Atawalpa die during the wars in the North, while Wayna Qhapak is still alive. (This almost happened IOTL, during a combat in which Atawalpa even lost an ear.) Then you end up with Waskar, who was a detested nut, and would probably end up worse for the Incas, as he would piss A LOT of people off with his shenanigans, turning them into potential allies for Pizarro. But even then, there was no civil war, manpower is greater, and should Waskar be smart about it, he might try to seize the invaders, after which things would turn in a similar way to the first option, but with a lot more popular resentment around.
 
twovultures: It is interesting to note that, despite being ravaged by the plague and being at a technological disadvantage compared to their Islamic neighbours, the Europeans were not invaded in the aftermath of the Black Plague. And, if they could go from being the backwater of Eurasia to the world's first global civilization in a few centuries, it seems perfectly reasonable to have the Inka dominate at least most of South America.

Yes, 16th century European guns, and cannon, are very useful in specific circumstances, but these circumstances, save the shock factor (which, BTW, did not bring down the Kongo nor the Zulu, the latter of which rejected -18th century- guns at first in favor of short spears!), chief among them significant numbers of troops with guns, were not present in the Andes. Even the late 19th century British, armed with breech-loading rifles, lost to the far less organized and smaller Zulu force, armed mostly with short spears, in the Battle of Islawanda, as did the Italians around the same time when pitted against Ethiopia in the Battle of Adwa.

Finally, the Inka did make sails and balsa ships as big as Spanish caravals. They also made armor out of cotton. And people said the same thing about the Maya Script that they now say about the Inka khipu recording devices; I am thus sceptical of claims that it the khipu are not writing (see here for an intermediate view).
 
twovultures: It is interesting to note that, despite being ravaged by the plague and being at a technological disadvantage compared to their Islamic neighbours, the Europeans were not invaded in the aftermath of the Black Plague. And, if they could go from being the backwater of Eurasia to the world's first global civilization in a few centuries, it seems perfectly reasonable to have the Inka dominate at least most of South America.

Yes, 16th century European guns, and cannon, are very useful in specific circumstances, but these circumstances, save the shock factor (which, BTW, did not bring down the Kongo nor the Zulu, the latter of which rejected -18th century- guns at first in favor of short spears!), chief among them significant numbers of troops with guns, were not present in the Andes. Even the late 19th century British, armed with breech-loading rifles, lost to the far less organized and smaller Zulu force, armed mostly with short spears, in the Battle of Islawanda, as did the Italians around the same time when pitted against Ethiopia in the Battle of Adwa.

Finally, the Inka did make sails and balsa ships as big as Spanish caravals. They also made armor out of cotton. And people said the same thing about the Maya Script that they now say about the Inka khipu recording devices; I am thus sceptical of claims that it the khipu are not writing (see here for an intermediate view).

The Europeans were not militarily technologically behind the Muslims by the 1300s.

The Europeans were invaded just after the Black Death. The Ottoman Turks took Gallipoli in 1354.

At Isandlwana, the Zulus had a 10:1 numerical advantage, but casualties were close to a 1:1 ratio. And it was followed shortly afterward by Rorke's Drift.

At Adwa, the Ethiopians had a 6:1 numerical advantage, and they had guns, even artillery.
 
There are some basic problems with the idea that a “clear line of succession” can be established here. The Inca monarchy was a complicated affair; whoever was nominated by the King, and got the approval of the majority of the nobles, got to be Inca, not necessarily the son of the Qoya (Queen.)

Now, the fundamental problem with establishing a clear line of succession beyond the direct heir in this scenario, is running the risk of perpetual civil war by some prince who knows he’s only two, or three, individuals away from supreme power.

With regards to the point of expansion, others have already mentioned what I think. The empire had stretched to the limits of what was possible to hold. The wars in the north took a generation to complete, as did those to the east against the Chachapoyas, while the conflict in the south against the Mapuches was left inconclusive. Contrary to what some might think, the Inca did not expand on the basis of brute force, crushing everything in their path. In fact, most of their annexations rested on the willing submission of the weaker states. But the most essential part, and that which led to the capitulations, was the “political contract” which was assumed by both parties the moment the conquered peoples became part of the Inca state. “Reciprocity” is the best term to define it here. The Inca state assumed certain obligations towards the ruling class of these nations; in turn they turned over their produce and manpower to the Inca. The workers worked the lands of their people, and those of the state, in turn the Inca guaranteed them protection, and sustenance in case of droughts, natural disasters, etc. Also, the local lords, expected presents, gifts, etc. whenever their military aid was needed. (When Wayna Qhapak refused to give Michi, one of his generals, the customary gifts upon his arrival in Quito, the general threatened to leave the field with his entire force, and head back to Cusco, and even worse, take the beloved war-waka, Wanakauri, with him. Wayna Qhapak, relented and gave in, showering his captains with gold, and else.)

Now, most of this modus vivendi had been in place in the Andes for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. The Incas only magnified the scale of reciprocity. But, beyond the Andes, and its traditional cultural center, this was new and alien, which made the customary method of expansion unsustainable, and as the wars at the ends of the empire show, really, really difficult to achieve.

I agree. Without Spanish intrusion, the Incas might at most expand a bit further (South)East into northwestern Argentina (up to Northwstern Cordoba at most) and Norht into the Colombian highlands. Incas conquered places were those living there were already settled cultures with sophisticated agriculture. They wouldn't expand into the Eastern jungles, Chilenean forrests nor into the pampas, were population density was lower and hunter-gatherers or nomad rudimentary agriculturers lived.

The only two ways I see for the OP (survival-wise) to achieve its purpose are:

1) Have Ninan Quyuchi survive. (He was the designated heir, but his death shortly before his father’s caused the meltdown.) With Ninan Quyuchi, things continue as always, and you skip the civil war. The plague will come and take its toll, but the state and its infrastructure will stand on better footing. Let’s say that Pizarro arrives with his small band. The aid provided to him from the get-go IOTL will not be present, as the feuds between populations from the civil war will never have happened. If he does land, the Inca will never allow him to come to Cusco, and in fact might not go out of his way to meet them personally; but send someone else instead. Without the Ninan’s security compromised, things might turn ugly for the Spaniards.

If survivors don’t make it back to Panama, it would be a while before more Spaniards attempt anything; at least 10-15 years, during which the Incas can get better acquainted with whatever technology they can get their hands on. Once the Europeans return, you can repeat the same steps; but at some point they might get a foothold, or advance from the north via modern Colombia, which in itself would give the Incas more time to adapt, as they travel though the jungle, hostile smaller tribes, etc.

The problem I see is that that would hapen if no Spanish survives to tell the story, but that is hard to achieve. IOTL, even if Athaualpa had killed or captured Pizarro and its folowers in the highlands, the Spaniards left at the coast would know what had happened, or at least be very suspicious of not hearing any news. And if an Incan army arrives, they'd just leave back to Panama. And once tales of how rich the Incas where, other expeditons would be attempted, sooner rather than later. Of course, they can be rejected, but It's likely that the Spanish would establish a foothold at the coast, or, if not, on an island coast. If the tawantisuya rejects all this attempts, eventually a modus vivendi might be established, and the Spanish might realize trade is more profitable than raiding or trying to conquer them. But it will take time...

The other option I see is to have the Spanish fail at settling in Panama's itsmus (maybe due to diseas -malaria is imported there earlier and its coast are inhospitable as they were during most of our modern era) or for other reasons. If the Spanish don't come from Panama, they'll eventually still get to the Incas, either from Colombia, as you say, or through Argentina-Paraguay (IOTL they did got there that way). But in either case, by the time they reach the empire, it will be recovering from the plagues, and the Spanish would be very streched. They might also come through the Strait of Magellan or through Drake's passage, but that proved to be very difficult to navigate IOTL, and those Spanish who do get that way would probably not be a serious threat to the Incas.
 
The Incas had no written language, but a very advanced counting system. Could they develop a calculator based on the function of their string and bead records?
 
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