In this country , it is good to kill an admiral from time to time

[aegis03florin]

I love reading this TL

Hi,

Congratulations, you have done a Very Good Job! Please continue! I enjoy reading timelines were France performs better...

I am doing several "constructive comments" because I believe France deserve a better outcome.
ITTL France have a better position that in the OTL Treaty of Ryswick (in the OTL France was far most exhausted and the military situation was far less better).

I like the idea of temporary divided England (I suppose that Louis XIV will support James only for seeing England week, but how long? I see James as a currency for negotiation).

I consider that Louis will not give back to Spain both the Spanish Netherlands and the Catalonia. France had the upper hand there and both region were mostly occupied by France + the Catalans were favorable to Louis. I think more plausible is giving up only one in exchange of the other or a better partition of Spanish Netherlands.

How strong was the English presence in America ? I think the southern colonies were not yet established or not very populated... How strong is the emigration, both in English (home devastated by war) and French territories (home devastated by war attrition and famine)?
Wiki give the number of the population in American English colonies by 1688 at 200 000 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Colonies ), including natives and slaves.

The Edict of Nantes was still revoked ITTL (1685) ? If yes, can we see a revocation of the Edict of Fontainebleau as a treaty clause (something similar to Edict of Tolerance)? Or at least an "Don't ask, don't tell" policy (french version, of course) ?

What is the situation in Italy ?
How the Dutch have sorted out with so easy conditions?

I would like to see a reform in the french finances... (something like, Louis force his nobles and clergy to pay taxes as all the subjects for finance the war).
I would love to see Louis, Le Grand Dauphin, or his son, Louis Le Petit Dauphin become "Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre"

Can you detail a little the situation in India ? What are the holdings of France, Dutch and England (if there are any)?

In this war were done very important military innovations (e.g. the flintlock, the socket-bayonet), are those still happened ?

John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough, is still alive ?

Maybe a map of Europe only will be more useful...

The link below is the OTL situation after the treaty :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Europe,_1700_-_1714.png
and the low Countries :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Low_Countries_1700.png

 

[Antony444]

Hi,

Congratulations, you have done a Very Good Job! Please continue! I enjoy reading timelines were France performs better...

I am doing several "constructive comments" because I believe France deserve a better outcome.
ITTL France have a better position that in the OTL Treaty of Ryswick (in the OTL France was far most exhausted and the military situation was far less better).

I like the idea of temporary divided England (I suppose that Louis XIV will support James only for seeing England week, but how long? I see James as a currency for negotiation).

I consider that Louis will not give back to Spain both the Spanish Netherlands and the Catalonia. France had the upper hand there and both region were mostly occupied by France + the Catalans were favorable to Louis. I think more plausible is giving up only one in exchange of the other or a better partition of Spanish Netherlands.

How strong was the English presence in America ? I think the southern colonies were not yet established or not very populated... How strong is the emigration, both in English (home devastated by war) and French territories (home devastated by war attrition and famine)?
Wiki give the number of the population in American English colonies by 1688 at 200 000 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Colonies ), including natives and slaves.

The Edict of Nantes was still revoked ITTL (1685) ? If yes, can we see a revocation of the Edict of Fontainebleau as a treaty clause (something similar to Edict of Tolerance)? Or at least an "Don't ask, don't tell" policy (french version, of course) ?

What is the situation in Italy ?
How the Dutch have sorted out with so easy conditions?

I would like to see a reform in the french finances... (something like, Louis force his nobles and clergy to pay taxes as all the subjects for finance the war).
I would love to see Louis, Le Grand Dauphin, or his son, Louis Le Petit Dauphin become "Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre"

Can you detail a little the situation in India ? What are the holdings of France, Dutch and England (if there are any)?

In this war were done very important military innovations (e.g. the flintlock, the socket-bayonet), are those still happened ?

John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough, is still alive ?

Maybe a map of Europe only will be more useful...

The link below is the OTL situation after the treaty :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Europe,_1700_-_1714.png
and the low Countries :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Low_Countries_1700.png

Hi ,
Thanks for the support !
As for your questions :

- James II is a bargaining chip , nothing more . Despite the current situation , it's not only a desire of Louis XIV that England remains weak : guess where all the dockyards which were building the ships of the line for the Royal Navy are now ? James 's kingdom gives also the French Navy control over the Channel .

- Yes , Louis gave back the Spanish Netherlands and Catalognia . The reasons are nearly the same that in OTL : try to gain influence in the future war . The war of the Spanish succession is pretty much unavoidable at this point , France needs Spain's gold to finance the future conflicts . OTL , Louis gave back Lorraine and Luxembourg to the Empire , ITTL they are still French . The fact that Marshal Luxembourg is still alive at the end of the conflict no doubt helps .

- The presence of the English in the New world is not as strong as OTL . Due to the absence of the Royal Navy , French corsairs led by D'Ibberville have made huge raids . Indians and French raids on land have been more succesful too . Ironically , the emigration for the English will be greater in the South which will be seen as more secure than the North . French territories will see greater immigration : they have been less famine than in OTL and they have established their domination over the fur trade . Still , the England colonies will be more populated than the French ones , which will rely on their alliances with their indian allies .

- Yes , the Edict of Nantes was still revoked ITTL (it was before the POD after all ) . As for the politic of the " Don't ask , don't tell " it will be possible in the future , but not as long Louis XIV is alive . Remember , that Admiral Duquesne , one of the greatest French Admirals was forever denied his promotion because he refused to renounce his faith ( and there wasn't any doubt about his loyalty ) .

- The Dutch have sorted out with so easy conditions because they were in complete control over the East Indies . Pontchartrain didn't really send any significant reinforcements and the Dutch were free to conquer a few cities . The Dutch are now in a better situation than the English in India , which offers interesting possibilities ...

- The military innovations still happened in this war , but are less developped due to the fact that the war finished earlier .

- The situation of Italy is pretty much the same than in OTL , even if the French made a few territorial conquests in Savoy .

- Yes, John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough, is still alive . At the moment , he governs Ireland in the name of William III .

- For the maps I will see what I can do . Bear in mind that it's not where I'm the strongest ...

 

[aegis03florin]

Good clarifications

Thanks for your update!

Good luck!

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

Interesting. I assume the legend of the invincible Royal Navy will not arise in this timeline.

I'd also hate to be a Catholic in northern England. And speaking of Catholics in the British empire, how will this affect Maryland? Will it become a Stuart colony while the rest of British North America goes to William, and will this lead to armed conflict between the colonies?

 

[Antony444]

Interesting. I assume the legend of the invincible Royal Navy will not arise in this timeline.

I'd also hate to be a Catholic in northern England. And speaking of Catholics in the British empire, how will this affect Maryland? Will it become a Stuart colony while the rest of British North America goes to William, and will this lead to armed conflict between the colonies?

Not exactly . It will be covered in a future update , but at the end of this war , a lot of high ranked officers who were made prisoner by the French are trying very hard to find an excuse not to go back home . Their performance have been on the whole less than optimal shall we say ?

The treaty of Ryswick didn't say anything about the English colonies . Pontchartrain tried to convince Louis XIV to annex Maryland in the name of James II , but the French king didn't agree with his naval minister .James II wasn't even consulted as a matter of fact ( which is going to cause .. difficulties in the future ). As a rule , the English territories overseas are at the moment a sort of a gray area in the diplomatic circles . The situation is not helped by the French corsairs and so there isn't a very large sense of consensus in the colonies . The colonists don't like James , but they don't like William very much after the treaty he signed . For the moment William III is their king , but if the situation radically changes , then it's not certain William will have their support ...

 

[MNP]

I have read this timeline in a couple sittings yesterday and I am really enjoying it. I don't know as much about the 17th century as I'd like. Often TLs set there or early 18th century have interesting premises, but there are so many names and places and details that I'm unfamiliar with that I end up dropping out.

But whether it's your style or how you've structured the updates I've had no problem following along at all!

So thanks for posting, and please continue.

 

[Rich Rostrom]

Treaty of Ryswick ( Year 1694 )


William III had no intention of pressing for Leopold I's claims in the Rhineland or for the Spanish succession: it seemed more important for Dutch and British security to obtain Louis XIV's recognition of the 1688 revolution and if possible , to secure the majority of England's territory .
Although Louis XIV continued to protect James II , he now recognised William III as King of Protestant England, and James II's as king of Catholic England ( which at the time was everything south of London).

1) You have the odd habit of inserting spaces before your periods and commas. Why?

2) I can't see a treaty that partitions England. That is an extremely radical act - shocking to all Englishmen and to most Continentals as well. I think the English (and their Dutch allies) would make expelling James and the French from England their absolute top priority - unless the Netherlands was also threatened with conquest. William would make almost every other possible concession to get France out of England - up to and including letting James have Ireland instead.

Also, Louis cannot recognize William as King of anything, unless James agrees.

 

[BELFAST]

Good time line.
Did the Treaty of Limerick still happen in 1691?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Limerick

 

[aegis03florin]

1) You have the odd habit of inserting spaces before your periods and commas. Why?

2) I can't see a treaty that partitions England. That is an extremely radical act - shocking to all Englishmen and to most Continentals as well. I think the English (and their Dutch allies) would make expelling James and the French from England their absolute top priority - unless the Netherlands was also threatened with conquest. William would make almost every other possible concession to get France out of England - up to and including letting James have Ireland instead.

Also, Louis cannot recognize William as King of anything, unless James agrees.

Hi,
I don't care about the space before comas and period... It's more important the content.

Globally I agree about your second point.... Maybe this is not a peace treaty but an armistice... I like the idea but it's quite ASAB the partition of England, even if is temporary.

And Louis can recognize who he want as what he want (in OTL he recognized William as King of England and have done a lot more...).

 

[Antony444]

1) You have the odd habit of inserting spaces before your periods and commas. Why?

2) I can't see a treaty that partitions England. That is an extremely radical act - shocking to all Englishmen and to most Continentals as well. I think the English (and their Dutch allies) would make expelling James and the French from England their absolute top priority - unless the Netherlands was also threatened with conquest. William would make almost every other possible concession to get France out of England - up to and including letting James have Ireland instead.

Also, Louis cannot recognize William as King of anything, unless James agrees.

1) This is how I type on my computer , I have this weird habit ...

2) Technically , the treaty recognized William and James as Kings of the territories they owned at the moment Ryswick was signed . You're perfectly correct , William tried to get every possible concession to get France out of England ... and Louis XIV (and all his ministers and marshals ) was totally against . They have a bridgehead in England , why would they give it back ?

The treaty of Limerick was signed in this timeline , even if later ( December 1691) , once it became clear that the French army wouldn't come back . The only differences are that almost no soldier took the offer of joining William's army , and that the treaty is not particularly well-thought at Versailles . In fact , the treaty is one reason ( among many others ) that Louis XIV concentrated his forces on Southern England .

As for the point Louis XIV has not the power to recognize William as King of England unless James agrees , it is a complete fantasy . At the moment , James is nothing more than a puppet . Anyway , Louis XIV wasn't the type of sovereign limited in his power . Of course he could do it , and he did at Ryswick ( and he recognised William OTL in different circumstances ) . Don't worry too much , he will repudiate the treaty as soon as the new war starts ... (like OTL)

 

[Antony444]

War, Diplomacy and Peace ( Europe 1694-1699 )



Prince Eugene of Savoy

The treaty of Ryswick didn't end the war in Europe . In the Balkans , war continued between the Ottomans and the Habsburgs . Soon , reinforcements led by Eugene of Savoy were able to crush the Ottoman army in the battle of Petroravadon in May 1695 . Undecisive skirmishes followed during the year of 1696 bu the League won the war in 1697 and forced the Ottoman Empire to demand peace and sign the treaty of Karlowitz . The Ottomans ceded most of Hungary , Transylvania and Slavonia to the Habsburg Empire while Podolia returned to Poland. Most of Dalmatia passed to Venice, along with the Morea .

In the rest of Europe , the end of the war didn't mean peace . For the Kings and politicians , it was just a cease-fire which would last only as the king of Spain was alive . Then , war once again would renew . William III and James II were in a bad situation in England , and tried to rebuild the country , torn apart by religion . On each side , fanatics were shouting to go to war again and expel the other side from England and war was averted more than once . The colonies on North America went to William's side , even if Maryland was more hesitant : the threat of the French and the Indians convinced them to stick together .

The naval situation has completely changed during the war .
In 1688 the most powerful navies were the French, English, and Dutch ; Spanish and Portuguese navies had suffered a serious decline in the 17th century . By the 1680s, French ship design was at least equal to English and Dutch counterparts, and by the Six Years' War they had surpassed ships of the Royal Navy , whose designs stagnated in the 1690s. Innovation in the Royal Navy, however, did not cease. After the 1690s, English ships began to employ the steering wheel, greatly improving their performance, particularly in heavy weather. The problem was that only the new constructions at the time had the innovation , and with their dockyards in enemy hands , there wouldn't be the possibility of building others . The French navy did not adopt the wheel for another ten years.

Combat between naval fleets was decided by cannon duels delivered by ships in line of battle ; fireships were also used but were mainly successful against anchored and stationary targets while the new bomb vessels were best used as shore bombardment. Yet sea battles were rarely decisive , Beachy Head and Barfleur were the exceptions , not the rule , and it was almost impossible to inflict enough damage on ships and men to win a clear victory: ultimate success depended not on tactical brilliance but on sheer weight of numbers. Here, Louis XIV was at a disadvantage: without as large a maritime commerce as benefited the Allies, the French were unable to supply as many experienced sailors for their navy. Most importantly, though, Louis XIV had to concentrate his resources on the army at the expense of the fleetin the first part of the war , enabling the Dutch, and the English in particular, to outdo the French in ship construction. However, naval actions were devastating for the English and the loss of Southern England didn't help . To Louis XIV, his navy was an extension of his army whose most important role was to protect the French coast from enemy invasion. He used his fleet to support land and amphibious operations or the bombardment of coastal targets, designed to draw enemy resources from elsewhere and thus aid his land campaigns on the continent . The situation began to change after Beachy Head , but it was clear that the navy was still less important than the army .

Once the Allies were clearly outnumbered in numbers by the French , they found prudent not to contest them in fleet action. At the start of the Nine Years' War the French fleet had 118 rated vessels and a total of 295 ships of all types. By the end of the war the French had 139 rated ships. In contrast the English fleet started the war with 173 vessels of all types, and ended it with 53 . Between 1690 and 1694 the French built 25 first to fifth rated ships; the English built 5 such vessels, and the Dutch constructed 21 . Thus, the Maritime Powers were only matching the French rate of construction and the Dutch Navy couldn't fight La Royale alone .

The major advancement in weapon technology in the 1690s was the introduction of the flintlock musket . The flintlock firing mechanism provided superior rates of fire and accuracy over the cumbersome matchlocks . But the adoption of the flintlock was not initially universal. Until 1694 for every two Allied soldiers that were equipped with the new flintlocks, three soldiers were still handicapped by matchlocks : French second-line troops were issued matchlocks as late as 1698 . These weapons were further enhanced with the development of the socket-bayonet . Its predecessor, the plug-bayonet – jammed down the firearm's barrel – not only prevented the musket from firing but was also a clumsy weapon that took time to fix properly, and even more time to unfix. In contrast, the socket-bayonet could be drawn over the musket's muzzle and locked into place by a lug, converting the musket into a short pike yet leaving it capable of fire .The disadvantage of the pike came to be widely recognised: at the Battle of Fleurus (1690) German battalions armed only with the musket repulsed French cavalry attacks more effectively than units conventionally armed with the pike, while French Marshal Catinat had abandoned his pikes altogether before undertaking his Alpine campaign against Savoy.

This period saw also a new game of diplomacy . As the Six Years War came to a close in 1694 , the issue of the Spanish succession was becoming critical. England , the Empire , the Dutch Republic and France, exhausted by the conflict, signed the treaty of Ryswick . However, they did not consult each other on the question of the Spanish Succession . The issue was further confused following the death of Joseph Ferdinand of smallpox in 1698 at the age of five , reopening the issue of the Spanish succession. England and France wouldn't ratify any treaty because of southern England ,as a result assigning the Spanish throne began a diplomacy war . Spain still possessed an immense territorial domain, including Milan and southern Italy, the southern Netherlands, the Philippines, vast territories in the Americas, and various other smaller territories and islands, making it by far the largest European empire . Many at the time thought it was time to partition it . The Austrians were displeased, for in the best case they openly vied for the whole of Spain and its possessions, and in the worst it was the Italian territories that interested them most, being richer, closer to Austria, and more governable. In Spain, distaste for the game was even greater , they had no pleasure seeing their empire going away ; the courtiers were unified in opposing partition, but were divided on whether the throne should go to a Habsburg or a Bourbon. Pro-French statesmen, however, were in the majority, and in September 1699 , Charles II agreed to bequeath all of his territory to the Dauphin's second son, the Duke of Anjou. Charles took steps to prevent the potential union of France and Spain; should Anjou have by chance inherited the French throne, Spain would have gone to his younger brother, the Duke de Berri , and thereafter Archduke Charles was to have been next in the line of succession . To say the news were badly received in Vienna was like saying Hell is warm : a large understatement ...

 

[BELFAST]

is Patrick Sarsfield and the rest of the wild geese in the French army now?

Flags of the Irish regiments in French service

Patrick Sarsfield created the first Earl of Lucan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Brigade_(French)

Flight of the Wild Geese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Geese_(soldiers)

 

[Antony444]

is Patrick Sarsfield and the rest of the wild geese in the French army now?

Flags of the Irish regiments in French service

Patrick Sarsfield created the first Earl of Lucan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Brigade_(French)

Flight of the Wild Geese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Geese_(soldiers)

Yes and no . They are supposed to be in James II 's service in southern England . In reality , they are Irish regiments in the service ( and the pay ) of Louis XIV in the French Army . Given the popularity of James , you know who they will follow if Louis gave an order and James gave another ...

 

[BELFAST]

Yes and no . They are supposed to be in James II 's service in southern England . In reality , they are Irish regiments in the service ( and the pay ) of Louis XIV in the French Army . Given the popularity of James , you know who they will follow if Louis gave an order and James gave another ...

I agree after the battle of the Boyne the Irish do not trust James II.
Because he deserted his Irish supporters, James became known in Ireland as Séamus an Chaca or James the Shit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamite_War_in_Ireland

 

[Antony444]

Sic vis pacem , para bellum (Europe :Beginning of the Year 1700)


King Charles II of Spain

At the beginning of the year 1700 , the eyes of every ruler on the continent were fixed on Spain , waiting the moment to begin the war . As Eugene of Savoy told other Imperial generals " when he dies , we march and burn Paris to the ground " . It was unfortunate , because the first person to die on February 3rd was the Pope Innocent XII . One week later , James II followed him in the tomb ( Accusations that he was stabbed by a dozen prostitutes are ridiculous accusations of course ) . Each of these two deaths would have had a significant impact on the world , together it was the spark that was needed to burn Europe . William III wasted absolutely no time to ask for the crown of James II , forgetting conveniently Ryswick and all the promises made during the last five years . Louis XIV was not amused and proclaimed James's son as King James III , legitimate ruler of England , Ireland and Scotland , stating that William III was a vile usurper .

War was inevitable . Many countries wanted revenge against France for the Six Years War and didn't care who began the fight . On March 5th , the Grand Alliance was formed . England , Portugal , the United Provinces, and most of the German states including Prussia and Hanover sided with Austria and declared William III as righful King of England , Archduke Charles as rightful heir of the crown of Spain . They sent immediatly a messenger to Paris , asking that Louis XIV recognised this or faced war . When he heard the news on March 15th , Louis XIV was livid with rage and declared war to the Grand Alliance . The electors of Bavaria , Cologne and the duchy of Savoy supported France . In Spain, the Crown of Aragon declared themselves in favor of the Austrian Archduke and refused to acknowledge the testimony of Charles II , while the rest of the country acknowledged Philippe V , grandson of Louis XIV , as their rightful king , Charles II having finally left this world when he heard about the war coming . The lines were drawn , the war could begin ...

 

[BELFAST]

Darien scheme

Does the Darien scheme still go ahead and fail?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

 

[Antony444]

Does the Darien scheme still go ahead and fail?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

No it won't go ahead . Without introducing many spoilers on future updates , the naval situation in the 1700s is radically different than in OTL .Scotland isn't and won't be in a position to launch ships to Panama ( or to anywhere else anyway ) while even the Spanish fleet can force them to surrender with token forces . Remember , there was a lot of officers and soldiers who joined the scheme because there were without employment .
There is a lot of fighting ITTL on the British Isles , as a result bored soldiers won't be very common .
I still have not decided if there will be such a scheme after the war , but I doubt it , at the end of a war money is always remarkable by its absence .

 

[BELFAST]

No it won't go ahead . Without introducing many spoilers on future updates , the naval situation in the 1700s is radically different than in OTL .Scotland isn't and won't be in a position to launch ships to Panama ( or to anywhere else anyway ) while even the Spanish fleet can force them to surrender with token forces . Remember , there was a lot of officers and soldiers who joined the scheme because there were without employment .
There is a lot of fighting ITTL on the British Isles , as a result bored soldiers won't be very common .
I still have not decided if there will be such a scheme after the war , but I doubt it , at the end of a war money is always remarkable by its absence .

so the 1707 act of union may not happen.
Would be good to see Scotland and France in an Alliance.
Auld Alliance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance

 

[aegis03florin]

Please Continue

I had a dream!
France borders from Gibraltar to Rhine!

Seriously now, if France can sort out as victorious from this war, I think that Louis can add to France the Spanish Netherlands, Catalonia and Balearic Islands.
Maybe Navarre (the kings of France haven't renounced yet to that title), maybe all territory up to Ebro river (as Aragon is in on war but will be sandwiched between Castile and France and Catalonia is pro French), still unlikely, in exchange of S England and other concessions...
With these adds, even if the Spain don't go to Philip V it will be great... still, Austria shouldn't put the hands on Spain ether.

Everything depends how France will performs. Keep in mind that William III has died in March 1702 OTL....

Can you do an update about the financial, military and social status of France?

Thanks

 

[BELFAST]

With Ireland being independent does it go back to the rule of Brehon law or some thing based on Brehon laws or does in continue with English common law?