In this country , it is good to kill an admiral from time to time

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Antony444, May 18, 2013.

  1. Arlos Sad monarchist Donor

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    Uh, didn’t get a notification again....
    Also, holy shit this is mess, clearly, nobody actually want peace and everyone is just taking a break before the next round....
    Out of curiousity, how many Batavian are Dutch descendant? And are they moving to the Cape now rather than stay under the french/malgash?
     
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  2. Azureora Well-Known Member

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    Consolidation efforts seem to be going as expected. Of course some nations are finding it immensely difficult to annex regions culturally distinct from theirs when you lack the industrial and military might to do so.
     
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  3. Antony444 Well-Known Member

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    Well, a large percentage of every former belligerent's population want peace. That's one of the reasons the leaders in 1902-1910 have stopped shooting at each other. If one King or a President declares war now, there could be an insurrection in the streets of their capital in a matter of days. Soldiers and non-soldiers are tired of war, and are disgusted by the magnitude of the massacre provoked by trench warfare.

    Mhh... the percentage should be at 20-22% post-war. It was larger pre-war, but of course a lot of elites were wiped out either by their enemies of the Great War or their own citizens.

    Yes, the eternal problem...the less powerful you are, the more difficult it is to grow.
     
  4. DracoLazarus Ouroborus Cataphractus

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    Yet, the more powerful you are, the harder it is to find good/worthwhile places to grow in.
     
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  5. Sébastien Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I understand, countries can and should "upgrade" their lands with more infrastructures, more properly cultivated lands, more factories, etc. For example, the Cape if I remember correctly is still a slaver country but that will hurt them in the end because factories and machines produces more, faster and better.

    That's why Russia isn't really at the level of France even with all the conquests done. Worse, since Russia is... late in his social reforms, the people who have know better conditions are probably already planning rebellions that will explodes during the next war. I hoped the actual Empress Anastasia will still be alive to see the situation she creates explode in her face... maybe literally.

    Having lots of lands is good but it isn't enough to be powerful. In fact, Batavia, Perse and Sikh have proven it can be your downfall.
     
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  6. Azureora Well-Known Member

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    You have to have a good amount of eveything to prosper. Land, educated populace, and reformed government. Simply look at how Otl Frances Napoleon took the world and bent it over.
     
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  7. Israel_Dan the Man Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if cars are being made yet. Also, is England democratic or still a parliamentary monarchy? Also,all these houses marrying and fighting each other is reminding me of Game of Thrones. House Bourbon is a rival to House Romanov, with House Satsuma and House Chuan as smaller houses and House Habsberg being a weak house after the Great War.
     
  8. Sébastien Well-Known Member

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    Not enough betrayals and wiping out of royal bloodlline for it to be like GoT.
     
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  9. Israel_Dan the Man Well-Known Member

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    The Habsbergs and Tokogawa families are nearly gone (more so the latter, the Habsbergs still have Austria Hungary and Southern Italy). The Wu family is gone.

    I wonder how a game of thrones character like Tywin Lannister, Joffrey (Grrr, he still makes my blood boil), Tyrion, Sansa, or Daenarys would react if they suddenly popped into this world, like suddenly appearing in London of this timeline and learning about everything that has happened. Daenarys being alive of course.
     
  10. Azureora Well-Known Member

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    Hm, on the question of noble families, what exactly are the rights of nobility in France?
     
  11. Israel_Dan the Man Well-Known Member

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    They still rule France, albeit with limits. They are also likely higher on the social, political, and economic pecking order than even most wealthy people like bankers and merchants.

    Edit: I can't wait for the next chapter!

    Btw, how many people does the UPNG have? Would 50 million be a good number?
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  12. Antony444 Well-Known Member

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    Cousins and Enemies (Chile and Peru 1902-1910)


    Tens of thousands Europeans had been perfectly willing to ignore there was a war ravaging South America, but it didn’t mean it had not been incredibly destructive. There was, however, one major difference with several other continents. The Entente had been defeated in this theatre, or depending on the perspective and the person speaking, it had not won. French Guyana was no more, and the Empire of Brazil was really a ghost of what had been pre-war Portuguese Brazil.

    Yet the fiercest and loudest critics of the UPNG when the casualties of the war for South America entered the debate were Peruvians.

    In appearance, the political leaders of Lima had every reason to be satisfied. They had now an extremely large facade on the Pacific Ocean, plenty of empty space for their population to develop, the Blanco Directorate of sinister memory was no more, and they had an advantage in numbers over their Chilean enemies in the south. The Peruvian population in 1902 was of 4.5 million, for 3 millions of Chileans. They could also count on fast reinforcements from Bogota, as new railroads allowed for easy travel where before travel on foot was the only solution.

    But the fact remained: Peru was constantly in the shadow of the UPNG, and it wasn’t going to change any time soon. For too many things, the Peruvians were totally independent on their northern ‘benefactors’, and the industrial powerhouses of the Federalist country had absolutely no reluctance to encourage and increase their power where Peru was concerned. More than two-thirds of the pre-war steel production had come from the UPNG. Most of the naval expertise relied on Granadan-built ships, trained sailors, and harbour-funded infrastructure.

    This situation had already created many tensions in the pre-Great War society. Unfortunately for Peru, the mobilisation of tens of thousands men to fight against the Chileans made sure the debts they owed to their allies was one that couldn’t be reimbursed in a generation. The UPNG was dominating the Peruvian market in many sectors, going from new agriculture material to the clothing of the Peruvian army. It was always far cheaper and easier to buy Granadan, and on the coast where the majority of the population was concentrated, the UPNG culture of profit and the traditions began to be firmly rooted in. It of course increased the divide between the middle classes of the west and the agricultural, impoverished communities of the south. And as the post-war baby boom made sure the population overcame the losses of the world-spanning conflict, it was the population of Spanish and immigrant ancestry which profited from the UPNG’s largesse. Not the ancient descendents of the Inca.

    The popularity of the Granadans on Peruvian territories continuously decreased for the latter part of the decade. The great nation which had managed to expel the French from Guyana and become the giant of South America was many things, but humble at the idea of not profiting from its victory was not on the list. The Peruvian economy was becoming more a secondary market of the UPNG, and in the mean time, the common Peruvian had the example of Chile to watch under his nose.

    Chile was not a puppet of the Great Powers. True, its uniforms and weapons were so well-divided between English and French equipment that a common joke of the period was to mistake Chileans for French trying to disguise themselves as English.

    But Chile’s economy was under the control of a Chilean government. Assuredly, it owned a lot of money to Paris, but it was independent. The French industrialists and military commanders wanted a country to oppose the former Central Alliance in South America, and since the Spanish were not suitable for the task, the Chileans were the best option they had in their hands. True, the nitrate trade was progressively losing its importance with the ability of the European nations to produce it by chemical processes, but Chile remained an economic partner and the best opportunity to punish the UPNG should the occasion presents itself.

    The problem of course, was to attract enough immigrants to rebuild rapidly from the ravage of the Great War. And here the Chileans had more problems than the Peruvians. Their best allies an ocean away or more, the men and women of Valparaiso knew they could only rely on themselves to preserve their liberties and their ways of life. The army and the navy augmented their effectives once more on 1909.

    It went without saying that whatever their feelings where the Great Powers were concerned, the diplomatic relationships between Peru and Chile were as close to non-existent as two countries at peace could make it possible. There were ambassadors in function, but these men rarely left the grounds of their embassy. The destruction of the lands torn apart by decades of war was always rejected on the other. And in each language, the name of the Peruvian or Chilean neighbour was a curse. If four years of total war had been supposed to discourage these two nations from further atrocities, force was to admit it had utterly failed...
     
  13. Arlos Sad monarchist Donor

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    Welcome back! :)

    So, if I understand correctly, the French are still popular in Chile, but Peru is getting annoyed with the UPNG?
     
  14. Xgentis Member

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    The french are more interested in an independent Chile while the UPNG has no problem wreaking their allies economy for profit and making them uterly dependent on them. Remind me of a certain otl country.
     
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  15. Sébastien Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why but I fear that ITTL Brazil will again make the worst choice possible at the worst moment. Btw, I prefer to be in the case of Chile, at least this way, you still have pride. Of course, it also show that the common people of the UPNG still haven't see past their pride (they did conquer French Guyana) and realize their situation. The Peruvian could decide to arrive "late" on the battlefield next time.
     
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  16. Xgentis Member

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    They conquered Guyana because the french were busy on others fronts. I think the UPNG will bit more than they can shew soon.
     
  17. Antony444 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I was a bit busy with other stories of my own, including the Weaver Option.

    Pretty much. The Entente is not the only alliance to have massive problems in the aftermath of the Great War.

    Now, now. All similarities with OTL are purely a coincidence...(can't believe I can say that with a straight face).

    Brazil...they are in an ocean of trouble, and it's not getting better soon...changing sides in the middle of the biggest world war ever is really, really not something the Great Powers (most notably France and Russia) will ever forget this century.

    But yes, for the moment the UPNG is flying high on the fact there have been the only ones to win against the French Empire...forgetting a bit the exact circumstances hwich made the victory possible in the first place.

    Hum, the UPNG, for the moment is not at risk from the French. The Empress is not going to declare a war for the sake of Guyana, and as long the Granadans don't attack Singapore or any of their bastions in the East Indies, their affairs in Asia are not France's problem. For the short-term, the UPNG is safe, Chile is not going to be on their southern frontier anytime soon.
     
  18. Israel_Dan the Man Well-Known Member

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    Since the UPNG now has the Philippines and Celebes which will soon be integrated in a few years, how many people does the UPNG have? Better yet, how many did it have both before and after annexing the Philippines and Celebes?
     
  19. Antony444 Well-Known Member

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    Sigh...you can't wait for the updates of each nation, do you?
    The numbers below are estimates, I may refine them in a few weeks.
    UPNG pre-war: 17 million
    UPNG 1902: 24.5 million (18.5 million South America, 5 million Philippines, 1 million Celebes)
     
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  20. Israel_Dan the Man Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much! And I'm very sorry, but I'm a numbers person.

    Wow, only 17 million pre war? They must have had some giant balls to fight France. Though how were they able to make so many ships with such a small population? On chapter 76, you said that the UPNG were able to make hundreds of ships.