Why would she care if her generals told her that the situation is because of northern chinese incompetence?
In this country , it is good to kill an admiral from time to time
- Thread starter Antony444
- Start date
I think this tl has a worse China then otl. Then again, while China may be divided, it’s still capable of unifying and destroying any armies sent against it.
Shame they have become so xenophobic that they won’t be able to obtain any foreign support.
Why would she care if her generals told her that the situation is because of northern chinese incompetence?
Well, some of these generals may or may not have insisted the Chinese officers were their puppets all along. So some of the incompetence may be blamed on them...
The problem is that even if the North 'gets its act together', it is extremely weak at the moment...far weaker than it was when the Great War ended and the Northerners were already in a bad position compared to the South. They may not have enough strength in them to resist for long a serious onslaught.
And isn't that dramatic considering what they got OTL...for Southern China times are getting better now. Of course, they truly are a realm bathing in happiness compared to what is happening north...
I think that Southern China should attack and annex Northern China sooner rather than later. With all the chaos plaguing Northern China, it would be good to strike while the iron is hot. Then again, their military may not be up for any more wars for a long time.
That might also provoke international reaction, they are not ready to go another round I think.
Plus, well, looking at the area up there, is it really worth conquering, meaning you have to then pacify it?
Ducal Rebellion (Iberian Peninsula 1902-1905)
Dozens of nations across the world had the misfortune to see the Great War be fought on their soil. The result was not pleasant to watch once the butchery stopped. There were cemeteries with marked and unmarked graves as far as the human eye could observe. There was a sort of hellish lunar landscape, where artillery shells, trenches, thousands of human skeletons, and bullet containers dominated everything.
The Iberian Peninsula escaped this dreadful fate. The Holy Spanish Empire and the Kingdom of Portugal were both members of the Grande Entente, and thus the potential of a large-scale conflict there was avoided as early as 1895. The Neapolitans armies were never supplied and numerous enough to launch an offensive towards the Gibraltar Straits, and the Entente navies prevented an amphibious assault on Aragon or the Balearic Islands.
Portugal and Spain were on the winner’s side of the Great War. With a homeland untouched by devastation and artillery barrages, trade gains or territory conquests to boast, the result should have been a happy population.
In 1902, the kingdom and the empire were as far removed from this vision as it was possible to be. Like in many nations, the insane death toll modern warfare imposed to its participants had made the pre-war estimations look like a pleasant farce. Over twenty percent of the men who went to war for Luis II never came back, and there were tens of thousands of veterans horribly wounded now trying to forget the war and mend their broken bodies and minds. Portugal had lost Brazil, and with it essentially the last of its aspirations as a Great Power, given that Angola and Mozambique were more and more tied economically to England, not Lisbon. Madrid had lost the Philippines and every possession of note in the Pacific.
The Portuguese and Spanish monarchs who accepted the terms of the Congress of London didn’t last long. Luis II, like Louis XVIII of France, had outwardly taken ten years for every year of conflict, and barely one month after the official end of the Great War, the Portuguese monarch collapsed in his office and despite the best efforts of his doctors, passed away two days later. He was succeeded by his eldest son, who took the name Luis III.
Spain’s succession was unquestionably more violent. The Duke of Cadiz, once rumoured to be the Empress’ lover and one of the most powerful nobles of Spain, had lost more and more influence as the Grande Entente disintegrated in internal quarrels. It had been the Duke who had pushed for the expansion of the Spanish Empire in Africa and the position France would stand down when the Spanish demands were received at Paris. Since the ministers of the French King refused to even consider half of the demands, the Duke of Cadiz had been increasingly moved aside from the matters of governance. This was not a situation the former advisor of Isabella II tolerated well and as the pockets of Cadiz progressively get emptier, many of his supporters began to desert him.
It didn’t help that the Spanish economy was lagging badly behind those of its former allies. Once upon a time, devotion to the Holy Empress and betrayal of trusted allies could have sufficiently diminished the tensions and put back the pre-war order in place. But it wasn’t anymore. The Spanish industry and production methods were from five to ten years behind those of a country like England. And to make it worse, the Spanish manufacturing and industrial centres were in general smaller and less numerous than Hungary-Austria or Naples took for granted.
It was a period of tensions, riots and the religious dogma was beginning to crack under the pressure. As the court descended in a frenzy of blaming the French for everything going wrong, the Duke decided his time had come. Isabella’s eldest son Crown Prince Carlos was too old for a regency, but his young sister was not. And there were plenty of Great War veterans unsatisfied with the Imperial Crown – the war pensions were rarely paid in full and in time – to reform some regiments loyal to Cadiz alone. Yet the number of troops was far from sufficient to overwhelm the troops loyal to the Empress, and Cadiz had to turn to the Portuguese for more men, not to mention the machine guns and the cannons indispensable for his great project.
Luis III, believing the Holy Empire in its current order had a good choice to completely collapse and be replaced by a more pleasant neighbour, signed a secret treaty with the ambitious aristocrat. The northern provinces lost long ago would be given back to Portugal, and trade agreements and industrial programs extremely favourable for Lisbon would be signed.
Alas for Luis III’s hopes, the coup was a series of blunders. While a suicidal charge of veterans managed to shoot Isabella II and kill her as she arrived at Madrid, the conspirators were opposed by the regular army at every turn and one Count high in Cadiz confidence captured in the earliest battles revealed everything he knew. Crown Prince Carlos was killed in the massive street warfare fought in the streets of Madrid, but at the end of March 1905, it was the loyalists who held the capital and the chief cities of the kingdom.
The Duke of Granada was put in command of the war effort by the fourteen years-old Isabella III, and ordered to break the rank of the traitors once for all. The anti-French propaganda was forgotten for the time being, and priests and newspapers began to light a fire in the hearts of their congregations against the traitor Cadiz and the perfidious Portuguese.
By June, the initial gains made by Cadiz and the revolted veterans were gone. The popular support they had always counted on for their plans never materialised once the rumours began to spread the rebel Duke intended to sell the realm to the Portuguese. The regular Spanish armies had suffered heavy losses, but its core of veterans was still alive, while the one of the rebel had perished.
To further decrease the problem of recruitment, the insurgents had no counter to the fact each every insurgent caught with a Cadiz flag or any symbol indicating a refusal to recognise Her Holiness the Empress was in general killed in a very gruesome fashion or sent to African projects where no one ever came back.
By October 1905, Cadiz had no choice but to abandon the city of the same name and flee with the eight warships – the biggest of the lot was an heavy cruiser – and set sail for Lisbon.
To say Luis III was not happy to see him when the architect of the failed rebellion was like saying the Sahara was a bit dry during the hot season. The Portuguese King, unfortunately for him, had no time to send the Spanish exiles. The modern weapons and the ‘volunteers’ which had fought by the side of the Spanish involved in the coup had certainly not been unnoticed by the Duke of Granada. By July, the Crown had had enough evidence to prove Portugal had been anything but an innocent party in the mini-civil war currently being fought. Under torture, plenty of Portuguese soldiers had given names of Colonels and Generals. In the mind of the Spanish Cardinals and Ministers, it wasn’t really important to know whether Luis III had arranged the alliance with Cadiz himself or if his high-ranked officers had gone behind his back. On September 27, the Holy Spanish Empire sent an ultimatum to its western neighbour. Disarm, allow a proper investigation team on Portuguese soil and pay reparations for selling weapons to enemies of Spain.
Luis III refused, his confidence bolstered by the fact the English ambassador had promised him military help should the Spanish proved aggressive. The Holy Empire of Spain declared war on October 5 1905. Less than five years after the end of the Great War, Europe woke up once again at the sound of the cannons.
Dozens of nations across the world had the misfortune to see the Great War be fought on their soil. The result was not pleasant to watch once the butchery stopped. There were cemeteries with marked and unmarked graves as far as the human eye could observe. There was a sort of hellish lunar landscape, where artillery shells, trenches, thousands of human skeletons, and bullet containers dominated everything.
The Iberian Peninsula escaped this dreadful fate. The Holy Spanish Empire and the Kingdom of Portugal were both members of the Grande Entente, and thus the potential of a large-scale conflict there was avoided as early as 1895. The Neapolitans armies were never supplied and numerous enough to launch an offensive towards the Gibraltar Straits, and the Entente navies prevented an amphibious assault on Aragon or the Balearic Islands.
Portugal and Spain were on the winner’s side of the Great War. With a homeland untouched by devastation and artillery barrages, trade gains or territory conquests to boast, the result should have been a happy population.
In 1902, the kingdom and the empire were as far removed from this vision as it was possible to be. Like in many nations, the insane death toll modern warfare imposed to its participants had made the pre-war estimations look like a pleasant farce. Over twenty percent of the men who went to war for Luis II never came back, and there were tens of thousands of veterans horribly wounded now trying to forget the war and mend their broken bodies and minds. Portugal had lost Brazil, and with it essentially the last of its aspirations as a Great Power, given that Angola and Mozambique were more and more tied economically to England, not Lisbon. Madrid had lost the Philippines and every possession of note in the Pacific.
The Portuguese and Spanish monarchs who accepted the terms of the Congress of London didn’t last long. Luis II, like Louis XVIII of France, had outwardly taken ten years for every year of conflict, and barely one month after the official end of the Great War, the Portuguese monarch collapsed in his office and despite the best efforts of his doctors, passed away two days later. He was succeeded by his eldest son, who took the name Luis III.
Spain’s succession was unquestionably more violent. The Duke of Cadiz, once rumoured to be the Empress’ lover and one of the most powerful nobles of Spain, had lost more and more influence as the Grande Entente disintegrated in internal quarrels. It had been the Duke who had pushed for the expansion of the Spanish Empire in Africa and the position France would stand down when the Spanish demands were received at Paris. Since the ministers of the French King refused to even consider half of the demands, the Duke of Cadiz had been increasingly moved aside from the matters of governance. This was not a situation the former advisor of Isabella II tolerated well and as the pockets of Cadiz progressively get emptier, many of his supporters began to desert him.
It didn’t help that the Spanish economy was lagging badly behind those of its former allies. Once upon a time, devotion to the Holy Empress and betrayal of trusted allies could have sufficiently diminished the tensions and put back the pre-war order in place. But it wasn’t anymore. The Spanish industry and production methods were from five to ten years behind those of a country like England. And to make it worse, the Spanish manufacturing and industrial centres were in general smaller and less numerous than Hungary-Austria or Naples took for granted.
It was a period of tensions, riots and the religious dogma was beginning to crack under the pressure. As the court descended in a frenzy of blaming the French for everything going wrong, the Duke decided his time had come. Isabella’s eldest son Crown Prince Carlos was too old for a regency, but his young sister was not. And there were plenty of Great War veterans unsatisfied with the Imperial Crown – the war pensions were rarely paid in full and in time – to reform some regiments loyal to Cadiz alone. Yet the number of troops was far from sufficient to overwhelm the troops loyal to the Empress, and Cadiz had to turn to the Portuguese for more men, not to mention the machine guns and the cannons indispensable for his great project.
Luis III, believing the Holy Empire in its current order had a good choice to completely collapse and be replaced by a more pleasant neighbour, signed a secret treaty with the ambitious aristocrat. The northern provinces lost long ago would be given back to Portugal, and trade agreements and industrial programs extremely favourable for Lisbon would be signed.
Alas for Luis III’s hopes, the coup was a series of blunders. While a suicidal charge of veterans managed to shoot Isabella II and kill her as she arrived at Madrid, the conspirators were opposed by the regular army at every turn and one Count high in Cadiz confidence captured in the earliest battles revealed everything he knew. Crown Prince Carlos was killed in the massive street warfare fought in the streets of Madrid, but at the end of March 1905, it was the loyalists who held the capital and the chief cities of the kingdom.
The Duke of Granada was put in command of the war effort by the fourteen years-old Isabella III, and ordered to break the rank of the traitors once for all. The anti-French propaganda was forgotten for the time being, and priests and newspapers began to light a fire in the hearts of their congregations against the traitor Cadiz and the perfidious Portuguese.
By June, the initial gains made by Cadiz and the revolted veterans were gone. The popular support they had always counted on for their plans never materialised once the rumours began to spread the rebel Duke intended to sell the realm to the Portuguese. The regular Spanish armies had suffered heavy losses, but its core of veterans was still alive, while the one of the rebel had perished.
To further decrease the problem of recruitment, the insurgents had no counter to the fact each every insurgent caught with a Cadiz flag or any symbol indicating a refusal to recognise Her Holiness the Empress was in general killed in a very gruesome fashion or sent to African projects where no one ever came back.
By October 1905, Cadiz had no choice but to abandon the city of the same name and flee with the eight warships – the biggest of the lot was an heavy cruiser – and set sail for Lisbon.
To say Luis III was not happy to see him when the architect of the failed rebellion was like saying the Sahara was a bit dry during the hot season. The Portuguese King, unfortunately for him, had no time to send the Spanish exiles. The modern weapons and the ‘volunteers’ which had fought by the side of the Spanish involved in the coup had certainly not been unnoticed by the Duke of Granada. By July, the Crown had had enough evidence to prove Portugal had been anything but an innocent party in the mini-civil war currently being fought. Under torture, plenty of Portuguese soldiers had given names of Colonels and Generals. In the mind of the Spanish Cardinals and Ministers, it wasn’t really important to know whether Luis III had arranged the alliance with Cadiz himself or if his high-ranked officers had gone behind his back. On September 27, the Holy Spanish Empire sent an ultimatum to its western neighbour. Disarm, allow a proper investigation team on Portuguese soil and pay reparations for selling weapons to enemies of Spain.
Luis III refused, his confidence bolstered by the fact the English ambassador had promised him military help should the Spanish proved aggressive. The Holy Empire of Spain declared war on October 5 1905. Less than five years after the end of the Great War, Europe woke up once again at the sound of the cannons.
Yes, Spain is insane. Turns out theocratic Absolute monarchies are not the most sane people.
Well, in the last decades they've not been noted to be extremely rational people. The only good move they made was allying with the Grande Entente.
But if you watched the Europe map of 1902, they expect very much a one-sided victory against Portugal, and without foreign support in the equation, they're absolutely right to think so.
Spain armies have a high percentage of veterans from the war in North Africa and are about three times more numerous than Portugal. Their enemy has absolutely no defensive depth whatsoever, they can be at the gates of Lisbon in a few weeks.
And of course, sane or not, letting a foreign nation get away with supporting a coup d'état and arming your political opponents is not a judicious move. If Portugal gets away with it, then it's only a question of time Naples will try to recover some territories in Africa or some unknown party will try to set aflame Spanish South America.
Madrid has to show it is still strong, otherwise the edifice risks falling apart...and of course the English ambassador made this promise to the King of Portugal, he did not transmit to the Holy Empress' government for he didn't know if his government would approve such a vigorous show of force.
Hmm...maybe.
Well-said. Obviously, it remains a large gambit on the part of Portugal. The English troops are in England. The Spanish troops are not far from the border. If Spain manages to pulverise the frontier garrisons and deny the majority of the harbours to the enemy, English support will need to be massive to counter the disadvantageous position, and whereas England is in a better situation than Spain, they still have to assimilate half of Scotland in the far north.
And if Lisbon and every part of Portuguese mainland territory is gone by the time the English reinforcements arrive, even the most steadfast ally is going to experience hesiation at the idea of declaring war for something Luis III definitely instigated...
The Portuguese Gambit (Iberian Peninsula 1905)
The Portuguese refusal of the Spanish ultimatum in October 1905 was a huge gambit. For all the pretensions of Luis III, Portugal was no longer considered a second-tier power on the world stage, and some European politicians thought the third-tier power qualification was too generous.
The Holy Empire of Spain was not considered a terrifying opponent after its lacklustre performance of the Great War, but it dominated Portugal in nearly every aspect, be it economic or military.
If England refused to honour its assistance promise, Portugal was going to get crushed. If English troops didn’t arrive in time, the Portuguese realm was going to be ravaged and pillaged. If the forces London sent were not numerous enough, it would be an attrition war Spain would win handily.
That was a lot of ifs, and to make it worse the details of Luis III’s plan to destabilise his neighbour had rapidly become common knowledge across the continent. Smuggling weapons across the frontier to sell it to insurgents and other rebel groups was not something most nations saw with a good eye. Approving the acts of the Portuguese had a high chance of seeing it employed against them in a few months. The Dual Republic of Hungary-Austria was the first country to demand the abdication of Luis III and the payment of reparations, but by no means the last. France and most of its allies addressed several official messages of disapproval via their ambassadors.
The reinforcements, if they came, could only come from England. And in the streets of London, the population was not exactly warm to a military intervention. Assimilating Scotland to the north was not cheap, and the souvenir of the Great War was in everyone’s heads. Foreign adventures were not the preoccupation of the English ministers for 1905. To make things worse from a Portuguese perspective, the betrayal of the Brazilians a few years ago had not been forgotten and many former Entente diplomats remembered who – according to them – had cost them the markets of Southern America.
Ultimately, the Portuguese Gambit failed before half of Europe had the time to realise its advantages and its drawbacks. On October 15, a formidable army of 175 000 men under the Duke of Granada opened fire on the Portuguese frontier defences and in a three-days bombardment, proceeded to break through.
The opinion of certain Lisbon strategists that the Spanish would not dare launch a winter campaign was proven categorically wrong.
Considering the invading army was stronger than the entire Portuguese land regiments currently paid by Luis III, there was not a lot the Portuguese could accomplish. Several ambushes and rear-guard actions bolstered morale and inflicted several thousand casualties, but the war was one-sided from the start. Porto was rapidly encircled by the second wave of Spanish troops, and surrendered at the end of October.
The Spanish army had not many railways to transport its vast conscript forces to the frontlines, but those it had were used to full capacity. When the artillery batteries were added, cities surrendered and forts fell. By the beginning of November, half of the Portuguese territory was lost and there were barely fourteen thousand English volunteers in the Iberian Peninsula.
This was when the war, which was not a model of civility and friendship, began to see the first real atrocities. The Spanish army had banked on a lightning offensive to bring Lisbon to the peace table. In a few days, Lisbon and Faro were going to be under siege. Faro was already under naval blockade from Spanish warships. Dozens of merchant ships had been captured, sunk or disabled. The economy of Portugal was in ruins.
And yet Luis III refused to surrender or begin negotiations.
The consequences for his people were nothing short of awful. The Spanish army had moved fast, too fast. A lot of the offensive’s celerity had taken for granted the war would be over before December. This meant the supply trains were not the best, and winter clothes were not provided in sufficient quantities.
As the propaganda coming from the Duke and Madrid continued to broadcast the perfidious behaviour of the Portuguese, the troops began to requisition what they needed from local sources. The Portuguese farmers, not swimming in gold, objected. In several cities and villages shots were fired. The situation rapidly degenerated and companies went out of control, ravaging at will the countryside, raping the women and setting fires to hide the magnitude of their crimes.
As twenty thousand English troops landed at Lisbon by mid-November, Portugal was burning. General Lloyd, commander of the English troops on the theatre, was forced to cancel his first counter-offensive as tens of thousands refugees fled towards the capital.
The murders and the depredations of the Spanish forces convinced at last London by December 5 to declare formally war to Madrid, guaranteeing the sea would belong to someone friendly to the Portuguese. But on many aspects, it was too little and too late. The kingdom of Portugal was already limited to Lisbon, Sines, Lagos and Faro. Thousands of soldiers were dead, and the country was dying as tens of thousands Spanish soldiers rampaged with sometimes high-ranked officers leading the packs. In the mean time, the Duke of Granada was building his earthworks around Lisbon and bringing more artillery. The first major battle of this conflict was about to begin.
The Portuguese refusal of the Spanish ultimatum in October 1905 was a huge gambit. For all the pretensions of Luis III, Portugal was no longer considered a second-tier power on the world stage, and some European politicians thought the third-tier power qualification was too generous.
The Holy Empire of Spain was not considered a terrifying opponent after its lacklustre performance of the Great War, but it dominated Portugal in nearly every aspect, be it economic or military.
If England refused to honour its assistance promise, Portugal was going to get crushed. If English troops didn’t arrive in time, the Portuguese realm was going to be ravaged and pillaged. If the forces London sent were not numerous enough, it would be an attrition war Spain would win handily.
That was a lot of ifs, and to make it worse the details of Luis III’s plan to destabilise his neighbour had rapidly become common knowledge across the continent. Smuggling weapons across the frontier to sell it to insurgents and other rebel groups was not something most nations saw with a good eye. Approving the acts of the Portuguese had a high chance of seeing it employed against them in a few months. The Dual Republic of Hungary-Austria was the first country to demand the abdication of Luis III and the payment of reparations, but by no means the last. France and most of its allies addressed several official messages of disapproval via their ambassadors.
The reinforcements, if they came, could only come from England. And in the streets of London, the population was not exactly warm to a military intervention. Assimilating Scotland to the north was not cheap, and the souvenir of the Great War was in everyone’s heads. Foreign adventures were not the preoccupation of the English ministers for 1905. To make things worse from a Portuguese perspective, the betrayal of the Brazilians a few years ago had not been forgotten and many former Entente diplomats remembered who – according to them – had cost them the markets of Southern America.
Ultimately, the Portuguese Gambit failed before half of Europe had the time to realise its advantages and its drawbacks. On October 15, a formidable army of 175 000 men under the Duke of Granada opened fire on the Portuguese frontier defences and in a three-days bombardment, proceeded to break through.
The opinion of certain Lisbon strategists that the Spanish would not dare launch a winter campaign was proven categorically wrong.
Considering the invading army was stronger than the entire Portuguese land regiments currently paid by Luis III, there was not a lot the Portuguese could accomplish. Several ambushes and rear-guard actions bolstered morale and inflicted several thousand casualties, but the war was one-sided from the start. Porto was rapidly encircled by the second wave of Spanish troops, and surrendered at the end of October.
The Spanish army had not many railways to transport its vast conscript forces to the frontlines, but those it had were used to full capacity. When the artillery batteries were added, cities surrendered and forts fell. By the beginning of November, half of the Portuguese territory was lost and there were barely fourteen thousand English volunteers in the Iberian Peninsula.
This was when the war, which was not a model of civility and friendship, began to see the first real atrocities. The Spanish army had banked on a lightning offensive to bring Lisbon to the peace table. In a few days, Lisbon and Faro were going to be under siege. Faro was already under naval blockade from Spanish warships. Dozens of merchant ships had been captured, sunk or disabled. The economy of Portugal was in ruins.
And yet Luis III refused to surrender or begin negotiations.
The consequences for his people were nothing short of awful. The Spanish army had moved fast, too fast. A lot of the offensive’s celerity had taken for granted the war would be over before December. This meant the supply trains were not the best, and winter clothes were not provided in sufficient quantities.
As the propaganda coming from the Duke and Madrid continued to broadcast the perfidious behaviour of the Portuguese, the troops began to requisition what they needed from local sources. The Portuguese farmers, not swimming in gold, objected. In several cities and villages shots were fired. The situation rapidly degenerated and companies went out of control, ravaging at will the countryside, raping the women and setting fires to hide the magnitude of their crimes.
As twenty thousand English troops landed at Lisbon by mid-November, Portugal was burning. General Lloyd, commander of the English troops on the theatre, was forced to cancel his first counter-offensive as tens of thousands refugees fled towards the capital.
The murders and the depredations of the Spanish forces convinced at last London by December 5 to declare formally war to Madrid, guaranteeing the sea would belong to someone friendly to the Portuguese. But on many aspects, it was too little and too late. The kingdom of Portugal was already limited to Lisbon, Sines, Lagos and Faro. Thousands of soldiers were dead, and the country was dying as tens of thousands Spanish soldiers rampaged with sometimes high-ranked officers leading the packs. In the mean time, the Duke of Granada was building his earthworks around Lisbon and bringing more artillery. The first major battle of this conflict was about to begin.
This result........ was to be expected. Fantastic update though!
Btw, sorry to do this but is there any info on Bengal? Population, military, economic power, technology, anything? They likely have around 79 million people including Burma, going on OTL's 1901 Bengal and Burma's 1900 population. With all their agriculture letting them get economic growth, I sense a potential power.
Btw, sorry to do this but is there any info on Bengal? Population, military, economic power, technology, anything? They likely have around 79 million people including Burma, going on OTL's 1901 Bengal and Burma's 1900 population. With all their agriculture letting them get economic growth, I sense a potential power.
In other hand Bengal is very multiethnic and multireligion country. Government will has much of doing keep things stable.
You sure it's so multiethnic? It is mostly Bengalis. Of course, since it is mostly Bengalis (Burma despite being huge has likely around 5.5 million people compared to around 75-80 million Indians which are mostly Bengali), the main issue will be religion.
If there is someone who can give more info, it'd be appreciated