Well what are the populations of Russia, Bengal, Chun faction china, ghurkas, Ethiopia, oman, and Vietnam? Just curious
In this country , it is good to kill an admiral from time to time
- Thread starter Antony444
- Start date
Now that the war is over peoples will want compensation for the sacrifices they made during the war in the form of reforms like education, universal suffrage and others social reforms. The countries unwilling to reforms might face a revolution and counter-revolution if things get very bad.
Red like blood (The Red Banner’s Rebellion 1903-1904)
Many Chinese officers who deserted the ranks of the puppet regime for the rebellion regime claimed the Russians would soon abandon China and most of their ill-gained lands. For a few of the Generals of the Red Banners – on average the rank was self-appointed – it was only a tactic to convince most of their forces to join them against the foreign devils, but many less educated civilians-turned-soldiers were confident this was indeed going to be a victorious campaign without real opposition.
After all, they were already whispers of great rebellions starting in Manchuria and other Russian-occupied ‘grand-duchies’. The Russians were exhausted by the Great War and according to the rumours of merchants and privateers they were experiencing difficulties in the far-away country of Poland too.
The Red Banners were going to free the Emperor from the foreigners’ imprisonment, or if it happened he had really cooperated with the Russians, find another. Some weapon traders and contacts in the South gave hints Guangzhou would not see with a bad eye a potential reunification, but the leadership of the Red Banners, riding on its first major victories, ignored the unofficial proposals.
They had soon a good reason to regret this assistance refusal. The Minister and administrators in charge of the Far East were removed by Moscow by December 1902, and soon the trains crossing the Urals were full of veterans. Anastasia I declared to her ministers the conquests of the last year were not going to be endangered by a band of bare-foot peasants who didn’t even know how to count and stand in a straight line. The rebellion was to be crushed, and the Chinese brought in line.
Endless columns of armoured cars, machine guns, infantry and artillery poured into Manchuria, followed by tens of thousands of colonists and the first massive Russian counter-attack began.
It was incredibly ruthless, even by the standards most Entente observers had been able to report in Poland. On their way to the Far East, thousands of young and old Russian soldiers had been lengthily briefed on the ‘Yellow Peril’ represented by the Chinese. Most communiqués repeated the Chinese were a backstabbing race, which could not be trusted to honour its obligations, required foreign equipment when it wanted to fight, and did not hesitate to accuse others of weakness before betraying them at the first occasion.
The reconquest of the lands lost in Manchuria were thus absolutely brutal, even for the Great War-era. Villages which had supported the rebellion were razed or entirely depopulated. All the soldiers who had sworn an oath to the Tsarina and then rebelled were immediately massacred, deliberate surrender or not. Families of traitors were murdered in cold blood. Families which had funded the efforts of the rebels were marched up north in Siberia to die in some gargantuan infrastructure projects.
The population of Manchuria in 1902 was 7.8 million. By the end of 1903, this number was almost down to 7.4 million...and thousands of Russian colonists were arriving to live on the new land Moscow had promised them. And it was far from the end: it would take eight more months before the Russian Generals of the theatre reported to their sovereign there was no organised resistance to Russian rule in Manchuria proper.
Southwards in Wu China proper, the outcome of the battle was less advantageous for the Russians. Since Moscow had declared Manchuria the priority, the Russian commanders were facing more opposition with fewer divisions. Northern China, even after its losses during the Great War, refugees deciding the South was better and several ugly episodes of starvation, had still close to 61 million inhabitants. And the majority did not support the puppet regime established by the Russians.
Unfortunately for them, the Wu Chinese had a lot of problems. Their army had been judged pathetic by modern standards during the Great War, the beating the Chuan Chinese had resulted in plenty of the best officers killed, and contrary to what a lot of Colonels and officers believed, mere months of peace had not made the problems disappear.
In fact, with Russian troops solidly in control of Beijing, a distinct lack of unity and forces fighting with old weapons, the Chinese Red Banners’ effort was markedly inferior to the one of their predecessors. By June 1903, surplus Southern Chinese weapons and supplies were finding their way in Red Banners’ depots, but total victory didn’t come. Each time during the summer campaign a Russian army fought an open battle or a siege against the Chinese, it was the Russians who emerged victorious. The casualties taken by the Red Banners were immense. For the month of July 1903 alone, over fifty thousand Chinese banner soldiers lost their lives. More local warriors undoubtedly perished of illness, untreated wounds and an extremely improvised logistic train relying most of the time on foraging.
The war became extremely unpopular. Cities were sacked and burned, tens of thousands refugees were now permanently on the roads, and west of Shensi there was no kind of central authority. Initially supporting the Red Banners, the civilian population’s hopes were cruelly dashed. Many red leaders were more concerned enlarging their powerbase than truly fighting for the cause of liberty and unity. Not only it wasn’t the case, but they were a lot of ‘Generals’, warlords and jumped-up bandits profiting from the troubled period to rule over one or two villages, a valley, a plain, a forested area or even a province. Northern China was looking more and more like a map detail for the historians than a true nation. The coastal areas and Beijing were controlled by the Beijing regime, but there was not much influence anywhere Russian troops and mercenaries were not garrisoned.
For the Red Banners who thought 1904 was going to be the year of final victory, the days were a bitter disappointment. Chuan China didn’t intervene. Guangzhou was content to offer surplus weapons and unofficial assistance, but only where the fist of Moscow wasn’t threatening. So close after the Great War, no one wanted to risk a new escalation between the Great Powers.
Until on October 14 1904, the news, initially suppressed, managed to get out from Beijing. The Emperor was dead.
Many Chinese officers who deserted the ranks of the puppet regime for the rebellion regime claimed the Russians would soon abandon China and most of their ill-gained lands. For a few of the Generals of the Red Banners – on average the rank was self-appointed – it was only a tactic to convince most of their forces to join them against the foreign devils, but many less educated civilians-turned-soldiers were confident this was indeed going to be a victorious campaign without real opposition.
After all, they were already whispers of great rebellions starting in Manchuria and other Russian-occupied ‘grand-duchies’. The Russians were exhausted by the Great War and according to the rumours of merchants and privateers they were experiencing difficulties in the far-away country of Poland too.
The Red Banners were going to free the Emperor from the foreigners’ imprisonment, or if it happened he had really cooperated with the Russians, find another. Some weapon traders and contacts in the South gave hints Guangzhou would not see with a bad eye a potential reunification, but the leadership of the Red Banners, riding on its first major victories, ignored the unofficial proposals.
They had soon a good reason to regret this assistance refusal. The Minister and administrators in charge of the Far East were removed by Moscow by December 1902, and soon the trains crossing the Urals were full of veterans. Anastasia I declared to her ministers the conquests of the last year were not going to be endangered by a band of bare-foot peasants who didn’t even know how to count and stand in a straight line. The rebellion was to be crushed, and the Chinese brought in line.
Endless columns of armoured cars, machine guns, infantry and artillery poured into Manchuria, followed by tens of thousands of colonists and the first massive Russian counter-attack began.
It was incredibly ruthless, even by the standards most Entente observers had been able to report in Poland. On their way to the Far East, thousands of young and old Russian soldiers had been lengthily briefed on the ‘Yellow Peril’ represented by the Chinese. Most communiqués repeated the Chinese were a backstabbing race, which could not be trusted to honour its obligations, required foreign equipment when it wanted to fight, and did not hesitate to accuse others of weakness before betraying them at the first occasion.
The reconquest of the lands lost in Manchuria were thus absolutely brutal, even for the Great War-era. Villages which had supported the rebellion were razed or entirely depopulated. All the soldiers who had sworn an oath to the Tsarina and then rebelled were immediately massacred, deliberate surrender or not. Families of traitors were murdered in cold blood. Families which had funded the efforts of the rebels were marched up north in Siberia to die in some gargantuan infrastructure projects.
The population of Manchuria in 1902 was 7.8 million. By the end of 1903, this number was almost down to 7.4 million...and thousands of Russian colonists were arriving to live on the new land Moscow had promised them. And it was far from the end: it would take eight more months before the Russian Generals of the theatre reported to their sovereign there was no organised resistance to Russian rule in Manchuria proper.
Southwards in Wu China proper, the outcome of the battle was less advantageous for the Russians. Since Moscow had declared Manchuria the priority, the Russian commanders were facing more opposition with fewer divisions. Northern China, even after its losses during the Great War, refugees deciding the South was better and several ugly episodes of starvation, had still close to 61 million inhabitants. And the majority did not support the puppet regime established by the Russians.
Unfortunately for them, the Wu Chinese had a lot of problems. Their army had been judged pathetic by modern standards during the Great War, the beating the Chuan Chinese had resulted in plenty of the best officers killed, and contrary to what a lot of Colonels and officers believed, mere months of peace had not made the problems disappear.
In fact, with Russian troops solidly in control of Beijing, a distinct lack of unity and forces fighting with old weapons, the Chinese Red Banners’ effort was markedly inferior to the one of their predecessors. By June 1903, surplus Southern Chinese weapons and supplies were finding their way in Red Banners’ depots, but total victory didn’t come. Each time during the summer campaign a Russian army fought an open battle or a siege against the Chinese, it was the Russians who emerged victorious. The casualties taken by the Red Banners were immense. For the month of July 1903 alone, over fifty thousand Chinese banner soldiers lost their lives. More local warriors undoubtedly perished of illness, untreated wounds and an extremely improvised logistic train relying most of the time on foraging.
The war became extremely unpopular. Cities were sacked and burned, tens of thousands refugees were now permanently on the roads, and west of Shensi there was no kind of central authority. Initially supporting the Red Banners, the civilian population’s hopes were cruelly dashed. Many red leaders were more concerned enlarging their powerbase than truly fighting for the cause of liberty and unity. Not only it wasn’t the case, but they were a lot of ‘Generals’, warlords and jumped-up bandits profiting from the troubled period to rule over one or two villages, a valley, a plain, a forested area or even a province. Northern China was looking more and more like a map detail for the historians than a true nation. The coastal areas and Beijing were controlled by the Beijing regime, but there was not much influence anywhere Russian troops and mercenaries were not garrisoned.
For the Red Banners who thought 1904 was going to be the year of final victory, the days were a bitter disappointment. Chuan China didn’t intervene. Guangzhou was content to offer surplus weapons and unofficial assistance, but only where the fist of Moscow wasn’t threatening. So close after the Great War, no one wanted to risk a new escalation between the Great Powers.
Until on October 14 1904, the news, initially suppressed, managed to get out from Beijing. The Emperor was dead.
The long term consequences of this are going to be immense. The Russian tsarina is starting to look more like stalin than the tsars, I can't claim to know if Russia will manage to hold on to all their gains through sheer terror, but looking at the ruthlesness of the current regime I think they have a fair shot. BTW, what is the population of Russia ITTL, and how many of them are actual ethnic russians or other loyal groups?
Well, the problem is that the Chinese were in rebellion and given that there were already prejudices...
Haven't calculated the TTL Russian population, but while the Russians are still the majority, they are very large minorities all over the Empire now...
Sébastien
Kicked
#1193, year 1850~~ I'm surprised you didn't make the discovery of cement by the french Louis Vicat in 1817 a bit of show. After all in OTL, he has given up any brevet on it and make it free to use for the whole world. I'm not sure ITTL, the same event would have happen. France could have gained some serious finance with it. Still, I hope to see soon the first reinforced concrete defense in France.
One question I have; how old was King Louis XVIII when died in 1902? I think that it was mentioned that he was born in 1813, but I could be wrong.
Did not think about it...but hey, we French can't discover everything...
I think he was in early fifties when he died...will have to consult my notes, which are unfortunately nowhere next to me.
There was Appert who invented conserves, too.Did not think about it...but hey, we French can't discover everything...
Sébastien
Kicked
Finally, I read all the post till here... It was a hard battle but for the "Mère Patrie" it need to be done. Such a good TL and with France as the superpower. Now, it is time to rebuild and to "assimilate" or "digest" the conquests. I don't know who is the new king of France but it should take the title of emperor and make Versailles the Imperial capital with an imperial assembly. The National assembly in Paris can't be too much non-continental after all. Poor lawyers and constitutionalists, trying to meld together monarchy and federalism... Well, that's the only way I see but you have probably another idea in mind. I can't wait to read it.
BTW, that's a MASSIVE work you put here, I know I wouldn't be able to come close. I am also happy Fort-De-France was mentioned, I miss the island of flower. Wait, 1902 was the year of the eruption of Mont Pelé, I hope the suspicious won't see a bad omen in that. Since the war was really global, I suppose the crack of '29 will be very different. After all, everybody is ruined.
BTW, that's a MASSIVE work you put here, I know I wouldn't be able to come close. I am also happy Fort-De-France was mentioned, I miss the island of flower. Wait, 1902 was the year of the eruption of Mont Pelé, I hope the suspicious won't see a bad omen in that. Since the war was really global, I suppose the crack of '29 will be very different. After all, everybody is ruined.
Thanks a lot for the likes, the dedication to read the entire story and the suggestions.
A problem of legitimacy (The Red Banner’s Rebellion 1905)
The relationship between the Northern Chinese Emperor and the Russian Emperor had never been really cordial, even before the first shots of the Great War were fired. Yet the Wu Emperor had been forced to agree with his councillors – albeit reluctantly - that modern weapons and modern armies were needed if they wanted to beat the Chuan usurpers.
As the Great War progressed and the Northern armies lost ground, the illusory friendship was abusing no one inside and outside the court, as the Emperor was busy blaming foreigners and some of the most progressive Generals for his own failures. On the other side, the Russians, supported in this view by many Europeans, were angry at the idea of pouring more weapons and resources for just holding at bay Southern China. They had been promised important trade advantages in the future dismemberment of the Southern lands; instead it appeared the papers they had signed were worth the paper they were written on and not much else.
In the end, something had to give, and the defeat of the Northern Chinese armies ensured that it was the Russians who took control of the regime’s remnants and began to rule in deed if not in name. The Emperor was under house arrest in the Forbidden City, and at least two-thirds of the ministers supposedly named by his Imperial Majesty had never met him once in their lives.
If Moscow had expected a sort of reluctant cooperation from the former ruler and his court, the next years were a massive disappointment. The Imperial Seal had to be seized from the dead hands of its keepers, several courtiers were slaughtered after trying – and sometimes succeeding – to poison the troops of the Forbidden City, and the escape attempts from the Emperor or one of his court were too numerous to be counted.
It was during one of these the Emperor lost his life on October 14 1904. By all accounts, it was also the most bloody as several former noblemen had infiltrated Beijing several thousand retainer troops and launched an all-out assault in diversion while saboteurs set fire to numerous Russian-owned buildings.
The attempt failed in the end, for the Chinese troops still suffered from the terrible leadership of their aristocratic commanders and the simple truth the rifles they had acquired were two generations behind the current Russian equipment. They had no grand artillery battery. They had few machine guns and those they had were poorly maintained, prompt to overheating. Thousands of deaths happened during the next two days, and the overwhelming majority were Chinese.
Realising that this time, his captors weren’t likely to be merciful, the Emperor of Northern China surrounded himself with his last loyal men in the Imperial menagerie and fought his last stand there. The Wu Emperor died well, but he died all the same in front of the cage of a great panda he had himself bought to enjoy his monotone days. Therefore his death and the bloodbath surrounded it rapidly gained the name ‘the Panda incident’.
With the death of the puppet monarch, the logical to replace him would have been his eldest son Yixuan. Unfortunately, said Prince had profited from the chaos reigning in the capital to escape and race southwest to Baoding. From there, the Prince rapidly started to proclaim the Russians and all the devil-foreigners had assassinated his father as he refused their commands.
This was a golden opportunity for the Red Banners. By March 1905, most of the support Moscow and its allies had enjoyed in Northern China was gone. The officials who had previously tolerated the Russians’ domination for the sake of their own ambitions turned aside and declared for Emperor Yixuan.
By June, the military situation was properly untenable. Russian victories on the field of battle continued, killing thousands of peasants and soldiers fighting under the red banners, but it was clear China was lost to them. As the railways were few and the methods of transportation average for the early seventeenth century, the battalions of the Tsarina had to shorten their supply lines and this meant retreating towards Manchuria. By that point, from a European point of view the entire country was in revolt and collaborators and foreign traders were killed every day.
Orders from Moscow in July confirmed these decisions. Manchuria was to be consolidated and fortified. Northern China was to be abandoned.
Yet the Russian forces did not let the Red Banners take back the territory they had guarded for the last three years in all impunity. Forts and defensive fortifications were blow apart, sabotaged or burned. Many cities on their retreat path which had turned to Emperor Yixuan for allegiance were sacked in an orgy of violence. Food warehouses were poisoned, stolen or burned. Wells were poisoned, villages and farms were set aflame. This was a merciless scorched earth strategy, and the new Imperial Chinese hosts were unable to stop it.
By the end of September 1905, it was over. The new Emperor entered Beijing, and the capital city was a ghost of its former splendour, the Russians having plunders a large portion of its cultural inheritance. Northern China was free, but Northern China was in ruins, plagued with hundreds of warlords and unable to feed itself anymore. It was obvious for everyone not a delusional opium-addict that the next decades were going to be really difficult for the crippled Empire...
The relationship between the Northern Chinese Emperor and the Russian Emperor had never been really cordial, even before the first shots of the Great War were fired. Yet the Wu Emperor had been forced to agree with his councillors – albeit reluctantly - that modern weapons and modern armies were needed if they wanted to beat the Chuan usurpers.
As the Great War progressed and the Northern armies lost ground, the illusory friendship was abusing no one inside and outside the court, as the Emperor was busy blaming foreigners and some of the most progressive Generals for his own failures. On the other side, the Russians, supported in this view by many Europeans, were angry at the idea of pouring more weapons and resources for just holding at bay Southern China. They had been promised important trade advantages in the future dismemberment of the Southern lands; instead it appeared the papers they had signed were worth the paper they were written on and not much else.
In the end, something had to give, and the defeat of the Northern Chinese armies ensured that it was the Russians who took control of the regime’s remnants and began to rule in deed if not in name. The Emperor was under house arrest in the Forbidden City, and at least two-thirds of the ministers supposedly named by his Imperial Majesty had never met him once in their lives.
If Moscow had expected a sort of reluctant cooperation from the former ruler and his court, the next years were a massive disappointment. The Imperial Seal had to be seized from the dead hands of its keepers, several courtiers were slaughtered after trying – and sometimes succeeding – to poison the troops of the Forbidden City, and the escape attempts from the Emperor or one of his court were too numerous to be counted.
It was during one of these the Emperor lost his life on October 14 1904. By all accounts, it was also the most bloody as several former noblemen had infiltrated Beijing several thousand retainer troops and launched an all-out assault in diversion while saboteurs set fire to numerous Russian-owned buildings.
The attempt failed in the end, for the Chinese troops still suffered from the terrible leadership of their aristocratic commanders and the simple truth the rifles they had acquired were two generations behind the current Russian equipment. They had no grand artillery battery. They had few machine guns and those they had were poorly maintained, prompt to overheating. Thousands of deaths happened during the next two days, and the overwhelming majority were Chinese.
Realising that this time, his captors weren’t likely to be merciful, the Emperor of Northern China surrounded himself with his last loyal men in the Imperial menagerie and fought his last stand there. The Wu Emperor died well, but he died all the same in front of the cage of a great panda he had himself bought to enjoy his monotone days. Therefore his death and the bloodbath surrounded it rapidly gained the name ‘the Panda incident’.
With the death of the puppet monarch, the logical to replace him would have been his eldest son Yixuan. Unfortunately, said Prince had profited from the chaos reigning in the capital to escape and race southwest to Baoding. From there, the Prince rapidly started to proclaim the Russians and all the devil-foreigners had assassinated his father as he refused their commands.
This was a golden opportunity for the Red Banners. By March 1905, most of the support Moscow and its allies had enjoyed in Northern China was gone. The officials who had previously tolerated the Russians’ domination for the sake of their own ambitions turned aside and declared for Emperor Yixuan.
By June, the military situation was properly untenable. Russian victories on the field of battle continued, killing thousands of peasants and soldiers fighting under the red banners, but it was clear China was lost to them. As the railways were few and the methods of transportation average for the early seventeenth century, the battalions of the Tsarina had to shorten their supply lines and this meant retreating towards Manchuria. By that point, from a European point of view the entire country was in revolt and collaborators and foreign traders were killed every day.
Orders from Moscow in July confirmed these decisions. Manchuria was to be consolidated and fortified. Northern China was to be abandoned.
Yet the Russian forces did not let the Red Banners take back the territory they had guarded for the last three years in all impunity. Forts and defensive fortifications were blow apart, sabotaged or burned. Many cities on their retreat path which had turned to Emperor Yixuan for allegiance were sacked in an orgy of violence. Food warehouses were poisoned, stolen or burned. Wells were poisoned, villages and farms were set aflame. This was a merciless scorched earth strategy, and the new Imperial Chinese hosts were unable to stop it.
By the end of September 1905, it was over. The new Emperor entered Beijing, and the capital city was a ghost of its former splendour, the Russians having plunders a large portion of its cultural inheritance. Northern China was free, but Northern China was in ruins, plagued with hundreds of warlords and unable to feed itself anymore. It was obvious for everyone not a delusional opium-addict that the next decades were going to be really difficult for the crippled Empire...
I don’t know about that. The chapter before this one, it was mentioned how Russians were already colonizing the area after killing the locals.
The prospects are not glorious to be sure.
And yes, Russia will be even less inclined to relinquish its hold on other regions. A task made even easier by the fact a lot of regions are far less populated than China and not at the end of a railway line of several thousand kilometres...
And you expect the Generals to say that to the Holy Tsarina?
Happy would be stretching up the benefits somewhat...the Russians are trying the colonial game, but they have other areas to deal with and their big centres of population are not next door. So while there will be a steady flux of immigrants, it's not enought to have the same effect as Han assimilation.
The Russians were focusing on wiping out everyone who rebelled. By a strange surprise, there were a lot of Han in that lot.