In The Presence of Mine Enemies Maps Challenge
- Thread starter Michael E Johnson
- Start date
Strategos' Risk said:
Well, it isn't mentioned, but I assumed that the Reich, given it's racial attitudes, wouldn't look very favorably on an independent black nation (OTOH, I suppose the sheer misery on Haiti might be an argument for leaving it alone, as an example of how the untermensch are incapable of governing themselves). Other map modifications are just some assumptions about how international politics might play out in a Nazi-dominated world: S. America is, as I mentioned, cribbed from GURPS alternate earths.
BTW, sorry I haven't done any more maps. Very busy lately, preparing for a job interview. I'll have some more time after February 1st...
Bruce
Thande
Donor
My take on 2009-era ITPOME map
Here's my take on the ITPOME world, circa 2009:
I've used the same colour scheme as in the high school map HT mentions: Germanic Empire bloodred, occupied areas paler red, Italian Empire pale yellow, Japan bright yellow, then Spain and Bulgaria different shades of purple, Portugal and Hungary different shades of green, Romania and Finland different shades of blue, South Africa grey and Sweden gold. I've coloured all other countries beige, and the Reich proper is outlined in bright red. I've also assumed the Empire does not include all of India ("it reached 'deep' into India"), adding only the part that speaks Aryan languages.
Here's my take on the ITPOME world, circa 2009:
I've used the same colour scheme as in the high school map HT mentions: Germanic Empire bloodred, occupied areas paler red, Italian Empire pale yellow, Japan bright yellow, then Spain and Bulgaria different shades of purple, Portugal and Hungary different shades of green, Romania and Finland different shades of blue, South Africa grey and Sweden gold. I've coloured all other countries beige, and the Reich proper is outlined in bright red. I've also assumed the Empire does not include all of India ("it reached 'deep' into India"), adding only the part that speaks Aryan languages.
I read John Reilly's review of In the Presence of Mine Enemies. I thought the U.S. lost World War III and had Omaha as its capitol, but wasn't conquered by Germany...?
Strategos' Risk said:
Well the USA was occupied by Germany after World War 3, so I doubt that the United States is a free nation anymore. I remember one of the school kids was talking about how his dad just got home from occupation duty in the USA.
I believe that the United States is much less then a satellite nation. It is openly occupied and it sounds like Germany controls the country, not the puppet government in Omaha.
Thande
Donor
Justifications
I based most of my borders on the scene where Alicia Gimpel is having the geography lesson. Maybe I should have made a border between the U.S. and Canada. Turtledove simply says "paler red marked territory occupied but not officially annexed into the Empire...France, the United States and Canada." It's a bit inconsistent, as I wouldn't expect an occupied country to have its own (albeit puppet) government. I think he screwed up: what was probably meant was more like a "Vichy United States", with theoretical semi-independence but always kept on a short lead. And in the same passage the deep red of the Germanic Empire only extends "deeply into Russia and India", not all the way, so I assume the Japanese have the rest.
I based most of my borders on the scene where Alicia Gimpel is having the geography lesson. Maybe I should have made a border between the U.S. and Canada. Turtledove simply says "paler red marked territory occupied but not officially annexed into the Empire...France, the United States and Canada." It's a bit inconsistent, as I wouldn't expect an occupied country to have its own (albeit puppet) government. I think he screwed up: what was probably meant was more like a "Vichy United States", with theoretical semi-independence but always kept on a short lead. And in the same passage the deep red of the Germanic Empire only extends "deeply into Russia and India", not all the way, so I assume the Japanese have the rest.
Thande said:
Well I agree with your justifications. They make enough sense. Good work.
Except for North America, it is a good map. IIRC, there were some hints about an independet Russia in the book, but I'm not sure.
Mikey said:
I thought they killed most of the Russians. So if Russia is going to be free, it'll be a bigger Germany.
Thande
Donor
More notes
Yeah, the book stated that were only a few Russians (and black people) left, mostly kept as a stock for dangerous mining work etc. I believe there was a mention of a few Russians 'pushed far, far east of the Urals', which might indicate some kind of Slavic zone from which the Germans get their slave labour (a la The Man in the High Castle)
Speaking of which, I find Turtledove's borders a lot more realistic than Dick's. Dick had the Japanese in control of pretty much everything Turtledove has, AND the Pacific States of America, AND Brazil (+ presumably the rest of Latin America). All that. By 1962. By Japan. I don't think so. Turtledove leaves the Latin American nations independent, which gives us the fun situation of Brazil's mostly black football/soccer team potentially beating the Germans and giving the Nazi leadership some headaches...
Yeah, the book stated that were only a few Russians (and black people) left, mostly kept as a stock for dangerous mining work etc. I believe there was a mention of a few Russians 'pushed far, far east of the Urals', which might indicate some kind of Slavic zone from which the Germans get their slave labour (a la The Man in the High Castle)
Speaking of which, I find Turtledove's borders a lot more realistic than Dick's. Dick had the Japanese in control of pretty much everything Turtledove has, AND the Pacific States of America, AND Brazil (+ presumably the rest of Latin America). All that. By 1962. By Japan. I don't think so. Turtledove leaves the Latin American nations independent, which gives us the fun situation of Brazil's mostly black football/soccer team potentially beating the Germans and giving the Nazi leadership some headaches...
I was always surprised that after Germany and Japan defeated the United States in the Third World War, that Germany didn't invade and "clean up" South America. I was glad that South America was able to still be "free" to a certain extent.
Thande
Donor
Personally I want to know what Turtledove's POD was. Dick had the assassination of FDR in 1934 followed by an isolationist America (though he does make references to Americans fighting in Britain). Turtledove seems to have a successful Sealion ("Aaargh! Hot potato, orchestra scores, plucked to make amends!" HONK!) followed up by a more successful Barbarossa, Japan conquering nearly everywhere without the US batting an eyelid, and then a US deprived of nuclear arms being conquered by Germany alone, without even any significant help from Japan. Paint me blue and call me silly, but I can't see this as being in any way likely. America may go isolationist sometimes, but never that isolationist. The trouble with any Nazis-win WW2 scenario is that in order to make this possible, you have to change the war so much that it's virtually unrecognisable (No El Alamein, no Stalingrad, etc. etc.)
Thande said:
I'm guessing that the Great Depression is much worse and lasts longer in the United States. FDR never reaches office, for some reason or another. I'd guess that the isolasionist Republicans take control by the election of 1936. Someone like Dewey might take office by '44, and I'm almost positive Wendell Wilkie won't become president because he wanted to get invloved. Just my idea, anyhow.
One of the things that bugged me was that it appeared that the Reich, and presumably the GCPS, didn't suffer any nuclear damage during WW3 in the 1970's. While I might buy the idea that the American nuclear arsenal was smaller and cruder than the one of OTL's 1970's, Turtledove seems to assume that nothing got through. Surely SOME Axis city would have been toasted, even if it's only Dublin and Taipei.