In the Hands of Clay

greetings! this is ny first thread so i hope its decent. basically its for me to get feed back on my new timeline: In the Hands of Clay.
basically its all the stuff that happens due to clay winning theelection of 1844
 
The Election of 1844

Clay campaigns more extensivly in pennsylvania and virginia, this combined with several flubs by polk in those states, leads to clay winning virginia and pennsylvania and indiana. Clays innagural speech declares "The oregan territory is my first priority and i will endevour to gain it for our great republic. And as for texas, we shall see."

800px-ElectoralCollege1844-Large.png
 
Well not to heavy on the details. I haven't seen anyone write a TL about Clay yet. IMHO he is a good figure for one, he ran for president 6 or 7 times IIRC and propagated one of the first systems for internal improvements funded by the Federal Govt (the American System) as well as being one of the premier orators and legislators of the first century of the American Republic. Please continue... I will be reading and offering any feedback I am able to.
 
Well not to heavy on the details. I haven't seen anyone write a TL about Clay yet. IMHO he is a good figure for one, he ran for president 6 or 7 times IIRC and propagated one of the first systems for internal improvements funded by the Federal Govt (the American System) as well as being one of the premier orators and legislators of the first century of the American Republic. Please continue... I will be reading and offering any feedback I am able to.
thanks for the imput! yeah, i've been meaning to write a TL on him for a while, and being in kentucky, they talk abhout him A LOT in school so...:D any way i'm trying yo get the detail better.
 
greetings! this is ny first thread so i hope its decent. basically its for me to get feed back on my new timeline: In the Hands of Clay.
basically its all the stuff that happens due to clay winning the election of 1844


A great title Sun-Tsu. I look forward to reading the TL. I've always liked Clay. He was a true visionary. I utilized him (w/minor butterflies, as he was born after the POD) in my Course of Human Events TL. A great national leader, legislator, and speaker, he is remembered in history as "Hal the Builder". Also, as an aside, since there was no American Revolution in he CoHE TL, and thus no Battle of Lexington, Clay's hometown (and your location) is called Bluegrass.


Edit:

I just got to thinking about an older Henry Clay thread on the forum. I thought it might be of some use to you, so I tracked it down: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=60741
 
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Clays First Term

The opening months of the Clay presidency, were notable because they would see Clay shine in his greatest talent: Negotiation. On August, Fifth 1844 president clay and his secretary of state, Willie P. Magnum (former Pres. Pro temp. of the senate) sat down with the British ambassador, Richard Pakenham, to determine the fate of the Oregon country. Clay immediately made it clear that the people of the United States would like a division of the Oregon country somewhere around the 55th parallel, Pakenham said that the only acceptable border would be at the 53rd parallel a compromised was reached with a border at the 54th parallel after three days of negotiations. This was not the only thing to happen during the Clay Presidency, in 1845 a system of new road ways and canals were established in the eastern US, while railways were expanded in the west. In 1846, the transmississiippian railway was begun and it would be finished on December 31st 1847 linking Pittsburgh Pennsylvania with St. Louis Missouri. in 1845 florida was admited as a state.
In 1846 the government of texas under president Sam houstan aproached president clay a long with a reprisenti tive of Santa Annas mexican government to broker a treatie a establishing a final border between texas and mexico, these talks lasted months, but eventually the southern border was set at the Rio Grande anthe western one at the 37th parrallel. the united states and mexico would recognize the Republic of texas as a legitamite and independant country.
 

Glen

Moderator
greetings! this is ny first thread so i hope its decent. basically its for me to get feed back on my new timeline: In the Hands of Clay.
basically its all the stuff that happens due to clay winning theelection of 1844

Well not to heavy on the details. I haven't seen anyone write a TL about Clay yet. IMHO he is a good figure for one, he ran for president 6 or 7 times IIRC and propagated one of the first systems for internal improvements funded by the Federal Govt (the American System) as well as being one of the premier orators and legislators of the first century of the American Republic. Please continue... I will be reading and offering any feedback I am able to.

A great title Sun-Tsu. I look forward to reading the TL. I've always liked Clay. He was a true visionary. I utilized him (w/minor butterflies, as he was born after the POD) in my Course of Human Events TL. A great national leader, legislator, and speaker, he is remembered in history as "Hal the Builder". Also, as an aside, since there was no American Revolution in he CoHE TL, and thus no Battle of Lexington, Clay's hometown (and your location) is called Bluegrass.


Edit:

I just got to thinking about an older Henry Clay thread on the forum. I thought it might be of some use to you, so I tracked it down: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=60741

Yes, indeed, there has been a timeline developed (up to analogue WWI) with Clay winning the election as the major change (though the actual POD is why he wins, and has a few other knock off effects of its own). See my Clay Victorious timeline for details.
 
Yes, indeed, there has been a timeline developed (up to analogue WWI) with Clay winning the election as the major change (though the actual POD is why he wins, and has a few other knock off effects of its own). See my Clay Victorious timeline for details.
yeah i've been reading it for ideas, sorry for the lag so far
 
This is trash.

There would have to be concessions for a border at the 54th parallel. A lot of concessions. Or, as they said back then, fight!

The people and government of Texas had no desire to be independent- and Santa Anna had no desire for that either.

One real post in, and already rubbish.
 

Glen

Moderator
This is trash.

Try and keep it to constructive criticism, eh?

There would have to be concessions for a border at the 54th parallel. A lot of concessions. Or, as they said back then, fight!

Yeah, there's a bit of handwavium there. Of course, the ones who said that were the Americans....

The people and government of Texas had no desire to be independent-

That is overbroad a statement. There in fact was a substantial independence movement. The Annexationists just won the debate.

and Santa Anna had no desire for that either.

Now that is gospel truth.

One real post in, and already rubbish.

Again, try and be constructive. He even says at the beginning this is his first try. Can't expect everyone to premiere in writing strongly.
 
The chances for a parallel at 54 is ridiculous, especially if its just because the Americans start demanding 55 in the negotiations.

The independence movement in Texas is always exaggerated greatly. They were a minority, and not even a substantial one- they were over-represented among the politicians of Texas, and were still a laughable minority. Actually, including the territory up to the Rio Grande (problems there, but so is any peace with Mexico) makes the idea even less likely- the settlers there were overwhelmingly opposed to independence.

The idea of Clay becoming President is great. But this doesn't actually represent that. For example, in his expansion of roads and Canals, a railroad linking Pittsburgh with St. Louis would not be a two year project (nor would that be a considered route; Pittsburgh isn't as important in 1845) Plus, at that point, railroads were not yet a definite part of his American System (it was Republicans who first jumped on rail politically and threw the other options to the curb)
 

Glen

Moderator
The chances for a parallel at 54 is ridiculous, especially if its just because the Americans start demanding 55 in the negotiations.

I agree that the way it is depicted here is implausible verging on the ASB. Clay isn't going to push for that much of the Oregon Territory, if he even pushes at all. He needs to give the British a reason. However, saying this is better than just saying 'rubbish'.

The independence movement in Texas is always exaggerated greatly. They were a minority, and not even a substantial one-

Perhaps. Do you have any references to support that contention?

they were over-represented among the politicians of Texas, and were still a laughable minority.

And this is where I must disagree with you - any well represented is not laughable. What you are saying here is that there influence was disproportionate to their actual numbers. That doesn't make that power any greater. If he says independence passes in a referendum, then you can cite their minority status as a problem. However, if they have the influence to swing independence in the halls of power, that's an entirely different story.

Actually, including the territory up to the Rio Grande (problems there, but so is any peace with Mexico) makes the idea even less likely- the settlers there were overwhelmingly opposed to independence.

You mean the settlers near the Rio Grande? Since many of them were Hispanic, but not that fond of the centralists or Santa Anna, I'm not entirely certain that your supposition that they wouldn't support independence is true.

The idea of Clay becoming President is great. But this doesn't actually represent that.

I agree that needs work.

For example, in his expansion of roads and Canals, a railroad linking Pittsburgh with St. Louis would not be a two year project (nor would that be a considered route; Pittsburgh isn't as important in 1845) Plus, at that point, railroads were not yet a definite part of his American System (it was Republicans who first jumped on rail politically and threw the other options to the curb)

Now these are good points (though I disagree with you a bit on the time of the arising of rail as important). Sun Tzu should take them into consideration in making changes.
 
look i'll do some more research and make a better post. Clays first term 1.0 here by apolished, okay? i'll re write it, but it could takes some time as i have finals coming up.:eek:
 
look i'll do some more research and make a better post. Clays first term 1.0 here by abolished, okay? i'll re write it, but it could takes some time as i have finals coming up.:eek:

Listen to Glenn & GSM; Ignore AA. I look forward to "Hands of Clay: Mark II". Good luck w/your finals. Are you at UK?
 
*I* like it. President Polk IOTL was a warmonger and as incurious as Bush II, so I rather like the idea of replacing him and of a President Clay.

A good thing to read on the era to read is Grant's Memoirs, Volume I. It's surprisingly readable, even for modern readers. That covers through the end of the OTL Mexican war, and is pretty good at giving you an idea of what life was like back then and most of the important issues of the day. Though, he didn't realize that Santa Anna effectively began the Texan rebellion by arbitrarily imprisoning the Texan Mexican loyalist leader, Stephen Austin, turning the loyalists mostly to rebels.

Some issues to watch:

o How far and how much new slave territory should be added to the Union slavery was the burning, burning issue of the day, and the politics of Texan and Oregon annexation were bound up in this; one was slave, and the other free. Clay was pro-compromise on this issue, to stop war.

o There was an outstanding issue of where to draw the Texan boundaries. Texans said the Rio Grande; Mexico said the Nueces, farther north.

o There was already precedent on the Canadian borders you'll want to look at.

o Clay was very good making compromises and getting agreement on them. But both sides need to yield something, and Santa Anna was bitter on Texas, of course, so I see OTL's Rio Grande as a nonstarter. Where between them the line lay would depend on how the pot was sweetened.

AppleAngel's wrong on Texas, of course. In fact, the annexationist Sam Houston alternated with the independentist Mirabeau Lamar in the Texas Presidency; if independence was so unpopular, how did Lamar win? There's still alot of Texan interest in the independent Texas Republic days and wistfulness over statehood.
 
Hands of Clay Mark 2 part 1

okay quick setup:
Clay tells his secretary of state Willie P. Magnum (former Pres. Pro temp. of the senate), to begin developing possible ideas on what to to do in Oregon, he in forms Magnum that partial or complete annexation is not completly neccesary, and simply extending the current Bilateral settlement is acceptable. Magnums crews come up with the following POSSIBLE northern boundarys:
1: Columbia River
2: 51st parallel
3: 52nd parrallell
4: 53: 40 parrallel
5: 54th parallel
Comments?
 
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