In The Hall of the Orange King (Apples and Oranges redux)

I wrote this in a coffee-fuelled frenzy, and even after rereading it and attempting to use spellcheck I'm still uncertain if I made everything clear and coherent. Ah, screw it.

I'll try to get a map up with the post-treaty borders sometime this week, but no promises.

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The Kingdom at its Zenith: Regarding England and Spain


The end of the *Seven Years War and the Catholic Restoration of the France greatly changed the political landscape in Europe and *Belgium itself. With France temporarily out of the picture and Spain finally coming to terms with the loss of Catalonia, Belgian trade flourished. The only possible obstacle to Belgium's total success was the steady growth of English global trade. Shortly before the Seven Years' War started, Carleton and other anti-Belgian Parliamentarians in England pushed through a massive modernization program for England's navy, developing new, formidible designs. Belgium, by contrast, began downsizing its navy after France's surrender and peace in 1683. By 1688, the largest ship in the Belgian Royal Navy was a 64-gun ship of the line that dated back to the Frisian War.

The Anti-Belgian faction remained strong in England even after Carleton's murder in '82, agitating for more action and direct confrontation. The Peace of 1683 technically marked a defeat for the United Republic[1], but gaining Virginia had sparked new ambitions. Up until 1676, Belgian relations with the Iberian peninsula had been so strained that the difficulty of commerce with Spain and her holdings in Italy had ruined the Mediterranean trades for the Dutch, so much so that England was able to fill the commercial gap in the region. This created an awkward division of trade, where Belgian merchants dominated Northern Europe's markets while England likewise dominated the south. Such a precarious arrangement was bound to eventually collapse.

This collapse occurred during the *Seven Years' War, when Belgian-Spanish relations warmed in the face of French aggression, and happened so quickly that the English maritime economy went into a depression. The issue of Spain's wool exports provides one example of the drastic changes in trade: “Whilst we formerly brought home four or five thousand baggs [sic] of cloth wooll and the Flemings scarecely a thousand, which they had by re-shipping, as their own produce was prohibited,” wrote one English merchant in 1678, “they now carry away fve or six thousand [bags of wool] and wee nought past ten or twelve hundred.” This coincided with England's textile industry falling into a slump, as the resumption of Belgian-Spanish trade allowed for the Dutch and Flemish textile manufacturers to compete and replace the lower-quality English produce in Spanish markets.

Naturally such an economic slump and reversal of fortunes created a bitter feeling in England. Riots in London, Bristol, and Dover, amongst other places, proved the severe public reaction to the slump and caused much unrest in the United Republic itself. The Great 1679 Fire of Southampton, for instance, was caused by rioters setting fire to a recent shipment of Dutch-shipped wine from the Canaries. Such unrest naturally distablized the government, and much of England's participation in the latter half of the war was limited to naval engagements due to troop requirements in the Isles for quelling unrest. Speaker Carelton's murder in 1682 is likely almost entirely due to anti-Dutch rioters upset at the lack of government action at home.

Postwar, however, Belgian-Spanish relations once more became strained and England could partially revive her Mediterranean trade. With France succumbing to chaos and civil war and Spain already having revealed her military weakness, it was obvious to all observers that Belgian power and influence was at an all-time high on the Continent. A Belgian delegation arrived in Madrid in July of 1687, demanding all of the Southern Netherlands as “her rightful due,” making it clear that if Spain did not peacefully accept their proposal that pressure “of another sort” would be used. Negotiations carried on for another month before finally giving up, and war was on.

The Brabantine War, as it came to be known, was fairly short. The Spanish Army of Flanders had been downsized to 12,000 before the outbreak of the *Seven Years' War, and had been downsized even further after the war as the loss of Catalonia shifted attention to Iberia and the Pyrenees. The only relief for Spain was that the old Spanish road through the Franche-Comte was still sound, so that Italian troops could be sent north. The ruling Spinola house in Genoa even sent some token troops northwards, although for the most part its contributions were limited to the financial sphere. Even with Italian assistance, though, Spanish successes were limited- their victory of Gossilies (Feb. 12, 1688) was almost immediately followed by the crushing loss at Braine l'Alland (Feb. 15-16, 1688). Defeat for Spain was almost certain by 1690, and envoys from Madrid began discussing matters with the Belgians at Antwerp.

This moment of heavy Belgian involvement on the Continent, distracted from other affairs, was when England decided to strike. Claiming that Belgium was refusing to respect the United Republic's trade rights and citing several examples of disrespect to English shipping at sea, the United Republic declared war, catching the Belgian government by surprise. Early naval battles near Gravelines and Flemish Knokke showed that the English had a siginificant advantage over the Dutch, as the Belgian fleets had never been geared towards large-scale engagements and suffered from a lack of first-rates. Further away from home, Belgian merchantmen in the Caribbean made easy prey for English privateers, enraging financiers and investors in Antwerp and Amsterdam.

Quickly Belgium sued for peace with Spain over the Brabantine War. A compromise was reached, wherein southern Brabant[2] and the Upper Gelders were ceded to Belgium. The remaining territories of the Spanish Netherlands would become nominally independent under the 'Cantonment' system[3] suggested by Dutch envoys, although Luxemboug would remain under Spanish control as to better divide up the newly independent cantons into Belgian and Spanish spheres of influence. This new confederation of provinces would be dubbed the 'United Cantons of the Netherlands,' and in French as 'Les Cantons-Unis des Pays-Bas.” Belgian-attended festivities in Lille[4] in June of 1690 were subdued, however, as the English navy continued to tromp Belgian fleets in the Channel.

Slowly but surely, however, things began to turn Belgium's way. Efforts in the Orient by the English East India Territory to destroy VOC power proved fruitless, as few local governments were willing were to openly war with the Dutch after the infamous Sulu Massacre (1677), and major powers were satisfied with the Status Quo or otherwise already occupied[5]. What little English privateering occurred was countered by the VOC more heavily armying her merchantmen and convoys, and 'encouraging' local allies to refuse the privateers a safehaven. Closer to Africa, an English raid on Mauritius in April of 1692 ended with the death of the famous Pirate-Admiral Hector Sparrow[6], which effectively ended English endevours in the Orient.

The blow that finally began peace negotiations turned out to not take place in Europe or the Orient, however, but in the Americas. On the 24th of August, 1693, a watchman in the infamous town of Plymouth Banks[7], Virginia, spotted a fleet of vessels approaching from the south. As the ships came closer to the old port town, a few men reached for spyglasses and searched for flags on the oncoming fleet. To their shock and dismay, flags they did find-- those of the WIC officer and dreaded privateer, Captain Rob Römer, well-known for his infamous duel and brutal killing of the Italian mercenary, Adriano Lupardi. By nightfall Römer's WIC fleet was within cannon range of the town, bombarding the Virginian town for hours before suddenly withdrawing to the north. The next morning, dazed citizens began cleaning up the debris and scavaging for lost property when a new alarm was raised-- Römer had landed just north of the town with a raiding party armed with muskets and torches.

A day later, all that remained of the lawless city was charred wood and a few scattered cadavers. Very few indentifiable bodies were later found in the ruins, as many of the corpses had turned to ash as the town had been swallowed in flame or had been picked apart in the bay by fish and birds.

Römer's ruthlessness did the trick, however. With the United Republic now painfully aware how unprotected her own colonies were and how bloody the war could be, negotiations began in earnest. Although England still made a few demands at first, the famous morningtime Battle of the Leghorn Foghorn near the Tuscan city of Livorno showed that Belgian naval power now ran supreme even in the Mediterranean, and the negotiators gave in. England agreed to a war indemnity, to cull Virginian-based piracy, and to end the practice of seizing Dutch shipping on the high seas. Of these three points, England only every fully complied with the first one, but it was enough for Belgian pride.

The audacious and ruthless actions of Belgium during this period would soon have far-reaching consequences, as more nations began to perceive the Dutch as a threat to their own national security. While these wars helped Belgian trade prosper, diplomacy floundered.


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[1] United Republic of England and Wales: The Republican government in London had sought to re-centralize the state in the aftermath of the initial revolt, and so began a slow but steady program culminated in the minor but important change from being the “United Republics” to “United Republic.”

[2] Southern Brabant: Having been held by the Spanish throughout the Dutch Revolt and after, Southern Brabant was drastically different from the Belgian-held majority of the State. Besides being majority Catholic through the Counter-Reformation efforts of the Spanish, much of the Dutch-speaking population had moved the relatively short distance northward to Brussels throughout the 17th century, leaving the area to Francophones.

[3] Cantonment: Modelled after the Swiss system, 'cantonment' basically involved the formation of a very weak confederation where each State holds many sovereign powers, including taxation, military control, and trade agreements, although some of these powers are limited by a constitution and central administration composed of a unicameral body attended by representatives of each canton. This is not to be confused with the military term.

[4] Lille: Administrative center and nominal capital of the new United Cantons.

[5] Shun-Manchu Wars: China, under the Shun dynasty, undertook a series of campaigns between 1670 and 1720 to subjugate the Manchurian nation after the bloodshed of the late Ming and its fall.

[6] Hector Sparrow: Known to terrified VOC sailors as “Rode Baard” or “Roadbart” and to the English as “Redbeard” or the more romantic “Barbarossa,” sometimes corrupted to “Barbossa”.

[7] Plymouth Banks: By the 1690s, the old Virginian town of Plymouth Banks was a well-known pirate haven and aggressor in its own right, coordinating periodic raids along the coast of Spanish Florida and organizing smuggling efforts in spite of England's mercantilist colonial laws. For an OTL comparison, think of it as a combination of colonial Port Royal and Deadwood.
 
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Very interesting update. A Swiss Wallonia (or something like that), very cool. I assume that this is basicly Walloon Flanders (or does it include some Dutch speaking parts, like Dunkirk?), Artois, Namur, Hainaut and Limbourg (BTW Why wasn't limburg included in the peacedeal, Maastricht seems a very useful fort if you control upper-Gueldres).

I would alsolike to mention that I still mourn the end of calvinistic France. I liked it as a cool butterfly that you dn't see often.

BTW why use the term Flemish? I assume that if Flanders is part of the Netherlands they are as Dutch as the rest of the Netherlands. Also why use * before Belgium or the seven year war? If it is to mark it as not the same as OTL it is pretty clear to most of us as this is an alternate history site.
 
Very interesting update. A Swiss Wallonia (or something like that), very cool. I assume that this is basicly Walloon Flanders (or does it include some Dutch speaking parts, like Dunkirk?), Artois, Namur, Hainaut and Limbourg (BTW Why wasn't limburg included in the peacedeal, Maastricht seems a very useful fort if you control upper-Gueldres).
Yeah, pretty much Wallonia, although I think Dunkirk is incorporated into that- felt that even if Spain ceded nearly all of Dutch Flanders, they'd still want at least one port, and Artois, I think, is completely landlocked.

Fair point about Maastricht, but I figured that Limburg would work just as well as a 'canton' in the Dutch sphere of influence. Beyond that, I also just kind of abhor enclaves. They were all the rage in Early Modern Europe, I know, but...
I would alsolike to mention that I still mourn the end of calvinistic France. I liked it as a cool butterfly that you dn't see often.
I know, I really liked them too, but with the POD so late I couldn't have the entire population convert, and having a Huguenot minority rule a Catholic majority just couldn't last forever. Besides, their downfall let me create a century-early French revolution with a completely different result.
BTW why use the term Flemish? I assume that if Flanders is part of the Netherlands they are as Dutch as the rest of the Netherlands.
I suppose, but even I've got this modern north-south divide still stuck in my head and it's hard to shake off. Besides that, I really did want to specify Flanders in the one Englishman's quote and highlight the strength of States Flanders' textile industry. The Meierij ITTL would probably be the other major textile-producing region, but I'm not even going to try turning that name into an adjective. Meierijer? Meierijian? Ugh.
Also why use * before Belgium or the seven year war? If it is to mark it as not the same as OTL it is pretty clear to most of us as this is an alternate history site.
It's a DoD affectation I've picked up-- it's very clearly not OTL Belgium, and I feel like it'd be nice to note that maybe once or twice at the beginning of an article and then carry on from there.
 
Yeah, pretty much Wallonia, although I think Dunkirk is incorporated into that- felt that even if Spain ceded nearly all of Dutch Flanders, they'd still want at least one port, and Artois, I think, is completely landlocked.

Fair point about Maastricht, but I figured that Limburg would work just as well as a 'canton' in the Dutch sphere of influence. Beyond that, I also just kind of abhor enclaves. They were all the rage in Early Modern Europe, I know, but...

Switserland has French, Italian, German and Rhaetoromanic Cantons, so it only makes sense that this "Walloon Switserland" also has various cantons who speak different languages.
 
Switserland has French, Italian, German and Rhaetoromanic Cantons, so it only makes sense that this "Walloon Switserland" also has various cantons who speak different languages.
Indeed, although it is kind of funny to think of a Wallonia that doesn't completely speak French.

Really inspired today, so I made a map. Hopefully I didn't screw it up too badly.

ithotoklowcountries1690.png


edit: Mis-spelled "Groningen" on the map.
 
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There'll be update later this weekend.

Question for you all- with Belgium starting to involve itself more to the east and dealing with bouts of propaganda that tie the country to Germany, do you think there will be any noticable changes in language or dialect in this TL's 18th century? I'm especially wondering about Cleves, East Frisia, and the German Rhine & Ems states' interactions with the Dutch- for instance, by 1750 do you think it's be more likely to encounter a Jan von Dijck from Venlo, or a Johan van Steinfurt from Munster? Or would nothing change in that regard?
 
There'll be update later this weekend.

Question for you all- with Belgium starting to involve itself more to the east and dealing with bouts of propaganda that tie the country to Germany, do you think there will be any noticable changes in language or dialect in this TL's 18th century? I'm especially wondering about Cleves, East Frisia, and the German Rhine & Ems states' interactions with the Dutch- for instance, by 1750 do you think it's be more likely to encounter a Jan von Dijck from Venlo, or a Johan van Steinfurt from Munster? Or would nothing change in that regard?

The Dutch language will change of course, but I believe that the addition of Flanders and Antwerp will have a larger effect than Cleves and East-Frisia. Holland and here Flanders and Antwerp are the core of the Dutch state. This is where the most rich and because of that most influential people live. The rest of the country (or at least the upper and middle class) will adapt its dialect to the western dialect and this will lead that standard Dutch will still be derived from the western dialect, just like OTL. That doesn't mean that the eastern dialects will have no influence on the Dutch language, but it will be minor. Also the German dialects from across the border are very close to the Dutch dialects. I know people who either couldn't speak German or Dutch, but were easily be able to communicate by speaking the local dialect.
Also remember that the dialects spoken in the Netherlands are very diverse. Understanding someone speaking the Limburgish dialect or the dialect of Twente is very hard for a Dutch person not from that region (and I am not talking about Frisian which is a completely different language).


But I must admid I don't know what you are planning. If your netherlands just enlarges itself by gobbling up a couple of German border principalities, then the Dutch language wouldn't change that much. If you are planning a Netherlands unites germany the language will be very different (but also very different from German).
 

Valdemar II

Banned
There'll be update later this weekend.

Question for you all- with Belgium starting to involve itself more to the east and dealing with bouts of propaganda that tie the country to Germany, do you think there will be any noticable changes in language or dialect in this TL's 18th century? I'm especially wondering about Cleves, East Frisia, and the German Rhine & Ems states' interactions with the Dutch- for instance, by 1750 do you think it's be more likely to encounter a Jan von Dijck from Venlo, or a Johan van Steinfurt from Munster? Or would nothing change in that regard?

I think their will be quite a language shift, likely Frisian will survive as majority language in East Frisia and likely be more spread in the North, but Dutch will likely stay much as it is, OTL Dutch is a mix between Low Saxon and Low Francian dialects, it likely be more influence by Low Francian in TTL than in OTL so we will likely see something closer to Flemish emerge. To the whole van and von, the Dutch will keep van if for no other reason because von indicates noblility in German, while van just indicated area of origin (like von did in the begining). Beside that I think Dutch will use fewer French loan words, with the weaker French position in TTL.
 
About van and von. I am pretty sure it will be van as apparantly the people in the area already used van even with the area being German. Or at least that is the idea i got from for example Lee van Cleef (with Cleef probably being Cleves) or Vincent van Gogh (with Gogh also being in Gemany). Also van Keulen, van Gulik and van Gelder are often seen Dutch names, while Cologne, Geldern and Julich are now in Germany. It looks like people on the otherside of the Dutch border also used van, although I must admid that it is very much possible that these people changed their names when they moved into the netherlands.
 
About van and von. I am pretty sure it will be van as apparantly the people in the area already used van even with the area being German. Or at least that is the idea i got from for example Lee van Cleef (with Cleef probably being Cleves) or Vincent van Gogh (with Gogh also being in Gemany). Also van Keulen, van Gulik and van Gelder are often seen Dutch names, while Cologne, Geldern and Julich are now in Germany. It looks like people on the otherside of the Dutch border also used van, although I must admid that it is very much possible that these people changed their names when they moved into the netherlands.

Van was also used in Germany itself: the most obvious example being Ludwig van Beethoven.
 
Thank you pompejus, Valdemar, Archdevil. I'm still quite weak regarding Netherlander and German linguistics, and its good to get imput on this sort of thing. Main issue for me as an American is simply comprehending the number of dialects within such a small area- it's like every State has its own way of saying things which varies from the standard, but all the States and provinces in Benelux come to an area only as big as the US state of Maine, which has maybe upwards of two dialects total.

I'm getting a headache just reading up on Franconian.
 
I'm on page four, and just got up to Li Zicheng.

Wow. This is great, and you also just radically altered the global economy.
 
Beautiful map:)

How about the Bishop of Munster? In OTL there were some classhes between him and the Netherlands. hte netherlands supported the independence of the city of MUnster which failed. An d the Bishop made some claims about Over-ijsel and East Frisia I thougth around 1665 and finaly he invade the Netherlands in1672 again for claims in the East.
I know this Belgium is far stronger but the Bishop og Munster is an eager man, so how about the Eastern border of Belguim. How about the status of the county of Bentheim, calvinist and in OTL a protectorate of the Netherlands.
 
A bit of an update: With finals and the resulting fallout, I've not had enough solid time to work much on the timeline up until very recently.

With all that time to think about things but not any time to do much about it, however, I've come to the conclusion that some of the earlier bits really, really need a rewrite, and I might as well redo some parts of the TL and clean up retcons, etc., effectively writing a new version. The opener and POD really ought to be a bit more catchy than "1571: Battle of Lepanto", and so I've begun rewriting that bit already. Here, have a peek at it:
The sun shined brightly on the fleet as it entered the Gulf of Patras. Galleys and galleasses under the mixed command of Mediterranean Christendom gently rocked back and forth in the waves, a sea of water below them reflected by a sea of banners above, each one showing to the world the blessings of a family, city, or country in this brave endeavor. The flags of Naples, Venice, and Genoa billowed proudly in the wind, while the long, trailing banners of Doria, di Leyni, Grimali, and more told of the great support individual families invested in the enterprise. Belowdecks, men performed their duties quickly in anticipation of the day's events. Power and match were readied, cannon prepared for battle, and bows strung taut. Waiting patiently, the men and ships of this grand fleet stood by ready to move on the mark of one man: Don Juan of Austria.

Don Juan at that very moment was deciding his next move. The feared and dreaded Ottoman fleet had been sighted, and a conference hastily convened aboard his flagship. “Gentlemen,” he asked, pacing about the regal captain's quarters of the ship, “Gentlemen, one and all of you, how shall we proceed? Shall we engage the Ottoman and fight for the glory of God, or shall we pull back?”

Romegas, a Gascon and Knight of Malta, was the first to respond: “What I think? That if Emperor Charles V, your father, had seen such an armada like ours, he would not have stopped until he had become emperor of Constantinople, and done so with ease.”

“You mean we must fight, Monsieur Romegas?” inquired the Don.

“Aye, sir. Let us fight.”

Captain Colonna, a Venetian, was the next to respond. Drawing himself up, he answered simply, quoting the Gospel, “'Even if I should die, I will not deny you.' Let us fight.”

Luis Resquesens, a Spaniard, dissented. Shifting about nervously in his seat, he attempted to dissaude Don Juan, stating, “Sir, should the battle be lost and God's favor not shine upon us today, we have nowhere to run to. The Ottomans, however, have haven at the port of Lepanto still, and should easily retreat to it ere we defeat them. It is a terribly risky venture you are seeking.” Hearing this, the Gascon Romegas sneered and whispered aside “Ah, Resquesens, considering all the possible options, in true Spanish fashion.”

Hearing this, Don Juan grew stern in countenance, and told his advisers to return to their ships. One last man had to be consulted, and then and only then would Don Juan give his decision. Walking out of the quarters onto the deck, he shaded his eyes with his hand and scanned a nearby Venetian galley. Sure enough, he soon spotted the elderly commander of Venetian forces, Sebastiano Verniers. The Venetian and Don Juan had been fighting over authority throughout the fleet's adventures that year, but now Don Juan had to suppress pride, personal and national, to gain Vernier's full support. Straining his voice to be heard over the crashing of waves and creaking of wood, Don Juan shouted “O Veniers, must we fight the Ottomans?”

Vernier's voice needed not strain itself. The news of the Ottoman sack of Famagusta and loss of Cyprus still haunted Venetians, but the tale of Bragadin's torture and death, a respected Venetian official, at the orders of Mustafa Pasha turned their despair into a bloody lust for revenge. “We must fight,” said Vernier with steel in his voice. “We must, and cannot avoid it.”


Re Parma: The next update was actually going to focus on Bentheim and Munster. While the Bishop was certainly aggressive, the House of Orange has been far more assertive in Continental Europe ITTL. Combined with the annexation of Cleves, victory over Spain, and the cantonment solution, much of northwest Germany is very wary of Belgium, and rightly so. It's far less likely that they'll side with Antwerp in any oncoming conflict, so Belgium's going to need to look for support elsewhere...
 
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