In Defense of the Motherland

Thucydides

My thoughts about the Eastern Front in WW2 was that the Germans were always doomed. But what if the Germans made more successful tactical and strategic decisions which allowed them to break the Soviets in the early push.

1...2...3... DODGEBALL!
 

Deleted member 1487

Just no......no. It prolongs the agony and the Russians are in a worse starting position in the cold war. They take worse revenge later on the Germans and humanity suffers even more than OTL.
 

von Adler

Even in an ideal position - say that peace is acquired with Britain, Turkey is in, the Itlaians do what they can, the Hungariasn and Romanians commit everything isntead of sitting and guarding each other, there are plans for a long-time war, logistics are given a high priority, there's no lend-lease, the Japanese go north instead of south, decent treatment of conquered subjects etc etc etc, it will still take at least 2 years to force a peace upon the Soviets.
 

CanadianGoose

Banned
von Adler said:
decent treatment of conquered subjects
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I would say this is crucial. Everything else (no LL, Japanese attack, British hostility) could be dealt with, as far as turning the tide of war is concerned (pre-Stalingrad Soviets were largely fighting the war which their own gear). However, convincing ordinary Soviet citizen that Nazi are worse than Stalin was important. To be frank, I see it as a contradiction almost too complicated to resolve. It takes sane German regime to deal with occupied territories decently, but it is hard to image a sane German regime going into a war with USSR at all.
 

Michele

CanadianGoose said:
I would say this is crucial.
(...)
convincing ordinary Soviet citizen that Nazi are worse than Stalin was important.
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Yes, it would be, in the sense that it would either make the already bad German logistics in the East a nightmare, or it would convince the German civilian population that this whole Führerprinzip was a bad idea.
 

Helltanz98

Even with everything going right and getting help from Ukraine and such Germany really didnt' have a plan, I mean if Hitler had some uber Wunderweapon to use like say a nuke maybe but yeah Barbossa was a bad idea with out ASB shit
 

Michele

Helltanz98 said:
Even with everything going right and getting help from Ukraine and such Germany really didnt' have a plan, I mean if Hitler had some uber Wunderweapon to use like say a nuke maybe but yeah Barbossa was a bad idea with out ASB shit
Click to expand...

Of course Hitler had a plan. He had seen the dysmal Soviet performance against tiny Finland, and the purges in the Red Army. His intel had told him the Soviets could mobilize about half the number of rifle divisions they eventually had in the field by the end of 1941. Nobody had told him about the T-34, the KV-1, or the actual numbers of Soviet tanks, or the new fighter aircraft. His own beliefs told him the Slavs were inferior, and that additionally they were just waiting to shake off the chains of Communism.
Therefore, his plan was to kick the door in, which would have made the whole unsound hut to come crashing down. He expected a collapse from within to help the Wehrmacht. He planned to achieve a Blitzkrieg victory like in 1939 and 1940. He wanted to defeat the Soviet Union through a KO in the first round. Then in 1942 he would have established control all the way to the A-A line, letting chaos, anarchy and famine doing the rest beyond that line.
That was the plan. Having a bad, badly-informed, wishful-thinking-based plan is not the same as not having a plan.
 
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