In defense of Ovaron97 - Knickebein makes a difference?

Perhaps the reason for the confusion is that when dead-reckoning navigation was tried in Europe it usually resulted in monumental foul ups?
(I mean, some Bomber Command units using dead reckoning ended up bombing Liverpool. Or Ireland.)

Coastal Command pilots received navigational training in Calshot. Bomber Command personnel didn't. There is much documentation on flaws with BC navigation shortcomings, but flying boats always found their way about, without a railroad map.
 
Saphroneth said:
What would you call that, a CGBN?
Wouldn't it be CBBN? Or CABN? (Hmmm...a CABN cruiser?:p)

You suppose that's why it failed? The name was silly?:p
 
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I'm still very confused by the (original) concept as posted by Overon. I have to admit I haven't read it so don't know the finer details but from what others have posted it was an attack on Scapa carried by carrier borne aircraft. This new question is asking about Knickebein being used to guide the carrier borne aircraft at low level on to the target ... is that correct?

First thing is, why use carrier aircraft when Scapa is in range of aircraft flying from Germany ... not fighters obviously, but there was no need for fighter protection in the early stages of the war as the only British fighters able to defend Scapa were sub-standard FAA fighters and a few Gladiators. Second thing, as I mentioned before Chain Home cover was pretty patchy with no CHL at all until almost a year after the war began and CH radar only gave warning for the last 50 miles or so at the start of the war stretching out to 70 miles during 1940. Third and final, unless the raid was to be carried out at night what's the point of Knickebein? Scapa was a large static target very visible from the air for many miles, a map, a compass and a sharp pair of eyes were all that was needed OTL so why would it be any different in any ATL?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I'm still very confused by the (original) concept as posted by Overon. I have to admit I haven't read it so don't know the finer details but from what others have posted it was an attack on Scapa carried by carrier borne aircraft. This new question is asking about Knickebein being used to guide the carrier borne aircraft at low level on to the target ... is that correct?

First thing is, why use carrier aircraft when Scapa is in range of aircraft flying from Germany ... not fighters obviously, but there was no need for fighter protection in the early stages of the war as the only British fighters able to defend Scapa were sub-standard FAA fighters and a few Gladiators. Second thing, as I mentioned before Chain Home cover was pretty patchy with no CHL at all until almost a year after the war began and CH radar only gave warning for the last 50 miles or so at the start of the war stretching out to 70 miles during 1940. Third and final, unless the raid was to be carried out at night what's the point of Knickebein? Scapa was a large static target very visible from the air for many miles, a map, a compass and a sharp pair of eyes were all that was needed OTL so why would it be any different in any ATL?


Ian-
I've already tried to answer you.
The bolded bit is probably why you're so confused. You've not read the thread.

Just read the dang thread and you'll see why it's carriers. Read the thread and you'll see why it's a raid taking place in 1941 (which I know I've mentioned before).

As for the other stuff...


  1. This is a TL where the GErmans have been building carriers for six years, so of course there's going to be better anti-aircraft defences at Scapa.
  2. As it's 1941, there's CH/CHL in place.
  3. The raid is to be low level, which is why Gudestein suggested Knickebein. The intent was to appear essentially from nowhere by going under the radar coverage, or something - regardless, the TL is clear about that.
 
I'm still very confused by the (original) concept as posted by Overon. I have to admit I haven't read it so don't know the finer details but from what others have posted it was an attack on Scapa carried by carrier borne aircraft. This new question is asking about Knickebein being used to guide the carrier borne aircraft at low level on to the target ... is that correct?

First thing is, why use carrier aircraft when Scapa is in range of aircraft flying from Germany ... not fighters obviously, but there was no need for fighter protection in the early stages of the war as the only British fighters able to defend Scapa were sub-standard FAA fighters and a few Gladiators. Second thing, as I mentioned before Chain Home cover was pretty patchy with no CHL at all until almost a year after the war began and CH radar only gave warning for the last 50 miles or so at the start of the war stretching out to 70 miles during 1940. Third and final, unless the raid was to be carried out at night what's the point of Knickebein? Scapa was a large static target very visible from the air for many miles, a map, a compass and a sharp pair of eyes were all that was needed OTL so why would it be any different in any ATL?


If you haven't read it then you don't understand why it gets people so annoyed, especially as in the first version of it, Ovaron admitted that he was trolling us all. I find it very interesting that he stopped updating his second, equally appalling, thread after everyone walked away from it and stopped responding to it.
 
If you haven't read it then you don't understand why it gets people so annoyed, especially as in the first version of it, Ovaron admitted that he was trolling us all. I find it very interesting that he stopped updating his second, equally appalling, thread after everyone walked away from it and stopped responding to it.
The reason I don't want to read the thread is because I would HAVE to respond ... and that might mean people all of a sudden having the reply to my response which in turn would open the wound once again. Want me to do that?
 
The reason I don't want to read the thread is because I would HAVE to respond ... and that might mean people all of a sudden having the reply to my response which in turn would open the wound once again. Want me to do that?

Ah, but you can't comment on the original thread, because the Mods put it out of its considerable misery. If you want to comment on the second thread then I have to warn you that you might encourage Ovaron to restart it. Which would be amusing but utterly pointless and would get a lot of people very angry.
 
Tyr Anazasi said:
IIRC the Japanese used a US Radio station to find Pearl Harbor.
That's a myth. IJN navs knew where Oahu was.:rolleyes: (Sorry, but that one sounds too much like the "needed low-powered radio" claims.)
 
No need to go back into Ovaron again, its basically taken Ovaron's ideas to study of an effective surprise attack is possible on Scapa Flow.

Two things, carriers: Would a He-111 or JU-88 as later modified to carry torpedoes fare as well as a Fi-167 or similar in a surprise attack pear harbor style?

As for guidance. Good arguments against. Here is another argument though. if Chain Home is in place, could it be used as guidance for land or carrier based aircraft?
I know this requires some Intel only learned later about the system, but lets go with it.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
That's a myth. IJN navs knew where Oahu was.:rolleyes: (Sorry, but that one sounds too much like the "needed low-powered radio" claims.)

It's not the question of knowing where Oahu was so much as knowing what the wind direction is. If you have a plotted target point and you don't know the wind, you can still get drift.
 
Just keeping with the carrier/land-based/surprise concept.

Question is what is the key to a succesfull base-raid. The aircraft type, the absence of enemy fighter, air defence artillery or something else?

Is it simply the surprise effect? Enemy defenders still sleeping?

Also, I am struggling to find evidence of torpedoes used by air craft at scapa. Did the He-111J had the range with torpedoes?

A little highlight from OTL raids on Scapa:


"Air raids in Orkney

On 17 October 1939, three days after the sinking of the Royal Oak, Scapa Flow was attacked by German bombers. Most ships had sailed after the U-boat attack, but 'HMS Iron Duke' was there as a floating administration centre. She suffered severe damage and had to be towed to Ore Bay near Lyness and beached. On board were a number of the survivors of the Royal Oak.

The 226 Battery, comprising men from the Orkney and Caithness T.A., manning the anti-aircraft guns at Ore and Rysa in Hoy, shot down one of the Ju 88s. One of the crew escaped by parachute, but was badly burned. This was the first German aircraft of the war to be shot down on British soil by an anti-aircraft gun. The first German bomb of the war to land on British soil fell during a second raid later that day.

On Saturday 16 March 1940, at least fourteen German bombers attacked Scapa Flow, the aerodrome at Hatston and other targets. Also attacked was the small group of houses at the Brig O’ Waithe, Stenness. Twenty-two high explosive bombs fell around the houses, one of which suffered a direct hit. James Isbister was killed by a piece of shrapnel, his wife and baby were uninjured. He had the sad distinction of being the first civilian casualty of World War 2.

Barrage fire was introduced in April 1940. This involved all anti-aircraft guns, both on land and on ships, firing rapidly at a certain height. This created a blanket of bursting shells to prevent the German bombers from diving at their targets.

A heavy attack on 8 April was met with a powerful barrage. The following evening Norway was invaded, and Scapa Flow saw its heaviest ever raid. Sixty Ju 88s and HE 111s launched an attack in an attempt to put the naval base out of operation. The raid ended in failure. It was the last major raid to be launched against Scapa Flow."
 
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