In ATL, would the Volkshalle and the Palace of Soviets really have been built?

Could Albert Speer's immense Volkshalle (Great Hall) ever really have existed following a WW2 victory, was it essentially just a fantasy? The trouble largely seems to be that it would have needed hugely deep foundations, but Berlin is built on sandy soil. Even with all the brutal forced labour that would certainly have been used, how on earth were they going to get nearly down to the bedrock as would presumably have been necessary? In Robert Harris's Fatherland, it says the building is the only one in the world that generates it's own climate, because the huge dome is so high up that it enables light rain to fall.

Of course that fits in a novel, but doesn't sound too realistic, does it? I know nothing about architecture, but how safe would such a huge dome be in the long run? Surely the moisture would eventually have put it at risk of collapse, the indoor rain (!) wouldn't have been at all good for the electric lighting and so on, either. Assuming the postwar Third Reich eventually fell apart and returned to democracy after Hitler's death, maybe the building would today still be a huge exhibition hall or something?

The also unbuilt Palace of the Soviets in Moscow (though it arguably got far closer actually to transpiring), maybe seems a bit fantastic as well. Of course, a Nazi victory would have doomed it anyway, Moscow would perhaps just have been an artificial lake. It was to be so huge, but also so close to the Moscow river. They had to make a bitumen curtain to prevent flooding of the excavations below river level, WW2 meant there were no workers available to maintain it.

Even if there was no German invasion and it had been built, what if river water had gradually seeped into the foundations? According to Wikipedia, concrete degradation due to groundwater wasn't a significant concern, but somehow it just seems to be asking for trouble. An eventual 9/11 like disaster, where the whole thing collapses? If Putin still happened, no doubt he'd really like a building like that, as a symbol of Russian power. Possibly the Russian parliament
would now be housed in it, amongst other state bureaucracy function(s)?

But the beautiful Cathedral that had been on the site would presumably have had to be rebuilt somewhere else, perhaps in the nearby Arbat area?
What was left of the Orthodox church in Soviet times would have been furious about the palace being completed on the site of such an important church, they were doubtless already angry that it had been blown up. Perhaps they'd have prayed God would strike the palace down. All the more so if the Soviet Union still collapsed and the church regained it's old power and influence. Good that both megalomaniac buildings never happened, in OTL the world maybe has enough of them in some places.
 
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For a really fun post-soviet option with the Palace, we can imagine that the Church decides it's too big to demolish but takes it over anyway and we get a sort of pagan temple converted to cathedral thing.
 
Volkshalle indeed would be impossible on that scale what Albert Speer planned. It just couldn't even hold its own weight even if all sand above of rockbed would had been removed. It should had been scaled down greatly so it could had been viable and practical.

Not idea what kind of ground Moscow has but probably Palace of the Soviets was bit more realistic but probably evne that should had been scale down regarding size and weight.
 
For a really fun post-soviet option with the Palace, we can imagine that the Church decides it's too big to demolish but takes it over anyway and we get a sort of pagan temple converted to cathedral thing.
It would have indeed made quite an impressive cathedral... but, what to do about that ginormous monumental 100m-tall Lenin statue perched on top?
🤔
Hey, I know! Send some (hopefully well-paid) welders up, add a robe to cover up Lenin's suit, put some long hair and a Byzantine halo on his head, maybe fill out the scraggly goatee a little bit, and for good measure, add a Patriarchal Cross in his outstretched hand... It could be the Orthodox version of Christ of the Andes! x'D
"The Cathedral of Christ the Redeemer of the Proletariat" 🤣
Oh God, somebody stop me...
 
It would have indeed made quite an impressive cathedral... but, what to do about that ginormous monumental 100m-tall Lenin statue perched on top?
🤔
Hey, I know! Send some (hopefully well-paid) welders up, add a robe to cover up Lenin's suit, put some long hair and a Byzantine halo on his head, maybe fill out the scraggly goatee a little bit, and for good measure, add a Patriarchal Cross in his outstretched hand... It could be the Orthodox version of Christ of the Andes! x'D
"The Cathedral of Christ the Redeemer of the Proletariat" 🤣
Oh God, somebody stop me...
Yes, this exactly! If ever there was a time and place where cultural and political palimpsest was the order of the day, it was post-soviet Russia. And of course there was a sculptor on hand ready to do what's needed. His name rhymes with Tsereteli because that was his name.
 
Was is it necessary for the commies to build their palace right where the cathedral stood? Im thinking of an alternate location, would they accept bulldozing the kremlin itself? Kinda how it was attempted in the past
 
Berlin belastungskoerper.jpg


Well, this thing is still around, without sinking into the Berlin underground.

So in a Nazi Victory scenario, the Volkshalle will not simply be scrapped, not as long as the Führer is alive.

It doesn't have to be built as a full solid stone building.
As long as the outside looked like it should, there was no limit on the building technology itself.

And for the thing with the rain: there was ventilation available in the 1940s, I think that could have been handled somehow.
 
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Well, this thing is still around, without sinking into the Berlin underground.

So in a Nazi Victory scenario, the Volkshalle will not simply be scrapped, not as long as the Führer is alive.

It doesn't have to be built as a full solid stone building.
As long as the outside looked like it should, there was no limit on the building technology itself.

And for the thing with the rain: there was ventilation available in the 1940s, I think that could have been handled somehow.

Wouldn't that ventilation system had been so loud that people inside would had became almost deaf?
 
Wouldn't that ventilation system had been so loud that people inside would had became almost deaf?
Possibly not(some number crunching would be needed to get even a guess on the order of magnitude); the system would have to be huge for that, though.

BTW, you said you don't know what king of ground you get on Moscow - it's marshy ground, a hell of a place to have big buildings on.
 
For Berlin, they have near infinite slave labor to pour huge amounts of concrete. Is there a way they can create a base to handle the weight?
 
Wouldn't that ventilation system had been so loud that people inside would had became almost deaf?
Passive ventilation is more effective - using natural airflow to do your work for you.
For a more sophisticated system, you could, for example use a bimetallic strip that operates a vent as the temperature changes (similar to the ones used on sprinkler systems but designed for smaller temperature changes).
Of course, they might get a charlatan pseudo scientist [1] to design something that operated on wishful thinking, so the whole thing would never work properly, even if it survived being designed using Destiny, Willpower and optimism.

[1] There were plenty of esoteric movements from the late 1800s up to Weimar-era in Germany and Austria, as well as some strange Nazi-era ones. The rest of the world also had plenty of their own.
 
I still think that pool looked amazing.
But being open ( and heated) all year was maybe a bit excessive.
So it is quite understandable, that it was closed and the cathedral rebuild without much controversy.
If there had been the gigantic Palace if the Soviets with a 100 meter Lenin statue on top instead, I am not so sure that they would demolish that.
And building the comparably small cathedral right next to it, wouldn't have looked that great either.

( When I had the chance to visit, I was surprised of the size, for the central church of the Russian Orthodox Church, I would have imagined it being able to hold a lot more people)
 
In one TL i am starting, the Palace of the Soviets is built, but the size is shrunk down to 210 meters (The Lenin statue accounts for20 of those meters). The Cathedral is rebuilt in Zaryadye Park. The Palace becomes the HQ of the Russian Ripoff EU they create, and is also home to Lenin's embalmed corpse. The Plaza is also much smaller, and most Soviet plans for moscow that failed IOTL still do.
 
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