A different Russian revolution that leads to democratization of the country but keeps Russia in war ends up federalizing and democratizing the country, providing Ukraine with internal autonomy and more territory in Eastern Galizia. After the war rational economic policies enable Ukraine to utilize her vast economic potential. Without the devastation of Soviet era and WW2, Ukraine enters the current times as a wealthy and stable multiethnic society.
Improving Ukraine's fate
- Thread starter Zaius
- Start date
Now Ukraine is more complicated. It has huge Russian population and population with pro-Russian sentiment. Ukraine is democratically and culturally more different than Baltics or Poland.
Also Soviets never would allow Independent Ukraine. If not after Revolution then before WWII or after it Ukraine would fall under Soviets.
IMO WWI is too late to Ukraine to be independent. Even Poland had very difficult time during Soviet-Polish War.
Also Soviets never would allow Independent Ukraine. If not after Revolution then before WWII or after it Ukraine would fall under Soviets.
IMO WWI is too late to Ukraine to be independent. Even Poland had very difficult time during Soviet-Polish War.
today eastern germany is still weaker than western germany, despite getting flooded with developement money after unification. it also experienced the same demographic collapse like the other ex soviet countries, all the young people are still going to the west to learn and work.
so chances are that money wont solve any of their problems.
how come south korea/taiwan became economic giants after their democratisations while eastern euope stayed the same?
so chances are that money wont solve any of their problems.
how come south korea/taiwan became economic giants after their democratisations while eastern euope stayed the same?
today eastern germany is still weaker than western germany, despite getting flooded with developement money after unification. it also experienced the same demographic collapse like the other ex soviet countries, all the young people are still going to the west to learn and work.
so chances are that money wont solve any of their problems.
how come south korea/taiwan became economic giants after their democratisations while eastern euope stayed the same?
Give them more time. I wouldn't say South Korea was an economic giant 15 years after the end of the Korean War, or Taiwan an economic giant 15 years after the Nationalists were driven off the mainland.
there was no eastern european "korea war" or "sovier civil war".
until relatively recently taiwan and sk were dictatorships too, so how come they're now trillion dollar economies while eastern euope is still a wasteland and only exports young people?
Taiwan and SK were not communist dictatorships though, were they? It's a little bit easier for a capitalist state to set up the potential for an economic miracle rather then a communist one, regardless of wether it is a dictatorship or not.
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GDP of central european states growth 2-3 times since collapse of communism.
I never said they did not develop, only why they haven't caught up with South Korea yet.
And they even had a suitable monarch to install in the new friendly kingdom.
The Estado Novo did fairly well at developing the economy of Portugal
SK had a head start and did not have ballast of inefficient and unnecessary post communist economy and mentality. And Czechs and Slovenes are pretty close.
Massive Entente military support to the Ukraine is nigh on ASB. Britain, France and the USA were, as Russian allies, opposed to any separatists besides Poland (and the Poles only because the Tsarist government had already decided to Poland would become independent after the war). And even Poland was supposed to stay west of the Curzon line.
Poland getting more aid from the West could help them quite alot. The main problem here was that the British and French dockworkers refused to load ships bound for Poland since Poland was at war with the Bolsheviks. So to get more aid going to Poland and indeed trade going to Poland, you need to change the dockworkers' minds.
Probably the best chance for a happier Ukraine would be if the Poles didn't crush the West Galician Republic. That would give the Ukraine a big leg up in the Russian civil war - they would gain the relatively developed Western Ukrainian lands and the two Ukrainian regiments of the Austro-Hungarian army.
A surviving West Galicia would also give a hope that Jewish-Ukrainian relations would be much better, since the West Galician Ukrainian and Jewish communities were friendly and worked together rather well.
fasquardon
Carefull with the sources - for rightwing dictatures, some pundits harps about supposed miracles. Like with a certain south american dictator.
Carefull with the sources - for rightwing dictatures, some pundits harps about supposed miracles. Like with a certain south american dictator.
In 1926 Portugal's external debt stood at 44% of its GDP, it was reduced to 19% by 1935 and by 1945 Portugal was a creditor nation.
Between 1960 and 1973 the Portuguese economy grew at an annual rate of 6.9%. In Europe, only Greece's economy grew at a more rapid rate (7.1% per annum).
From 1926 to 1968 the per capita income of Portugal Quadrupled. From 1968 to 1974, it nearly doubled.
One has to remember that Salazar was well studied in finances and economic policy (unlike most other dictators), and served as minister of finances before (and for a time while) prime minister. Caetano's background was Law, But he did serve as President of the Corporative chamber for 6 years, so he did have a fair degree of knowledge about economics and finance.
While there may have been room for more growth, the Portuguese economy did grow quite a bit under the Estado Novo
Which is pretty much what I said. Or meant to say - perhaps I wasn't being clear enough.
You know what I mean. But if you insist on splitting hairs... Replace the phrase 'communist dictatorships|states' with 'communist economies', and that with 'serious, abortive and economically ruinous attempts at implementing the particular type of socialism envisioned by Soviet leaders, or something very closely related once we take into account the fact that the USSR and the rest of the Soviet bloc weren't 100% identical'.
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Ukraine is not an optimum ethnocultural/economic area. Honestly what would be best for it economically would have been to join the Russian Federation. It can maintain a regional identity within that federation while benefiting economically. Of course this would go against Western geopolitical interests so it was unlikely to happen.
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Banned
This clashes with Ukrainian nationalism. So you would need a POD at least sometime in the 19th century (unless you are one of those silly people that believes Ukrainian nationalism sprang overnight from the ether in WW1 period as a Germano-Bolshevik ploy
) to alter it. Of course, if you alter the very idea of Ukrainian national identity to something unrecognizable from OTL, the OP question of "improve Ukraine's fate" becomes meaningless as the answer you are giving is "make it not Ukraine".