improved panzer mark 3

Hitler after poland ordered the panzer mark 3 to equipped withe the l60 50mm gun instead the ordinance office for reasons unknown used the l42 which was a much inferior weapon

had the directive been followed to the letter and all subsequent mark 3's had the stronger gun what would be the effects

i personally would see it not doing anything in russia because only a high velocity 75 or 88 was going to take out a t34 or kv1


in africa i could see it really helping since many of the brittish tanks could be destroyed by 50mm fire
 
How many British tanks were destroyed by German tanks guns compared to German anti-tank guns after blundering into A/T traps.

Also, no amount of ugunning can improve the logistics situation in North Africa.
 
How many British tanks were destroyed by German tanks guns compared to German anti-tank guns after blundering into A/T traps.

Also, no amount of ugunning can improve the logistics situation in North Africa.
Actually it would probably make it worse
 
Hitler after poland ordered the panzer mark 3 to equipped withe the l60 50mm gun instead the ordinance office for reasons unknown used the l42 which was a much inferior weapon

had the directive been followed to the letter and all subsequent mark 3's had the stronger gun what would be the effects

i personally would see it not doing anything in russia because only a high velocity 75 or 88 was going to take out a t34 or kv1


in africa i could see it really helping since many of the brittish tanks could be destroyed by 50mm fire
My understanding is that some of the earlier panzer marks were still produced with 'too small' guns because the gun production couldn't keep up to the tank production. I don't know if that's the case here, but if you have Hitler saying 'No tank goes out the door unless it has X gun or better' - and makes it still, you may get a lot fewer tanks coming out of the factory!
 
Problem. The reason this was not done sooner OTL was that there were not enough L60 guns to keep up with the production of the PzIII and that those produced were used for dedicated AT assault guns. SO OTL, the decision was made to ramp up the production of L60 guns and keep the PzIII as is until the gun production had caught up.

If you go to L60 as soon as Hitler orders it, you completely delete the most efficient line of German AT assault guns and heavily reduce the number of available PzIII.

The Red Army thanks you. WWII in the west stops in 44, when the allies meet on the Rhine.
 
There were 3 cannon options for the Pz III:

The 37mm, the 50mm L/42 and the 50mm L/60

My understanding is the reason that some Pz III were still being armed with 37mm guns after Hitler's orders was a shortage of the 50mm guns. But the fact that those armed with 50mm were armed with the medium length and not the long length was due to concerns about crossing ditches if the gun extended beyond the front of the hull.

If the last concern is laid to rest and those PzIII with 50mm are armed with the L/60 version, then they would be able to penetrate T-34's frontally within 500 yards using tungsten cored rounds. Before everyone starts yapping about the shortage of that ammo I will remind them that most Russian tanks in 1941 were T-26s and BT-series which this tank could pierce at very long ranges with plain old AP shot. As for the KV tanks the frontal armor would be too much but the sides and rear could be penetrated with AP 40. One last thing to note is that the F-34 cannon did not begin to equip T-34's and KV-1's until around Nov 1941. Before then they had an inferior medium length 76.2mm weapon.
 
A bit more OTL data.

Pz III Auf A to to E had a 37

Pz III Auf F to H had a 50 L42

Pz III Auf J and up had a 50 L60 ( I haven't any info on Auf I, if it existed )
 
I don't think even the 50mm gun could stop a Matilda II, it was only when the Africa Korps turned the FLAK 88s on them they stopped being the "Queen of the Desert".
 
I'M not so sure that that is correct. I think that the Pzkpf III Specials armed with the 50mm/l60 did have that ability but not the earlier tanks.

There was a proposal to re-equip the Pzkpf III tanks with the turret used on the Puma Armored Car.
 
it wouldnt destroy a matilida's frontal armor but it could on the sides and rear and the brits where always kind enough to present flanks to the africa corps by always engaging in the charge of the light brigade on them
 
If after the war begins , contracting for armaments is switched over from costly 'annual cost pluse contracts' to 'multi year fixed price', then incentive based production would take over. That means no constant changing of calibres and deletion of small runs of secondary calibres etc. Then the numbers will shoot up and double or triple over a couple of years.

Then you are faced with armament choices well ahead of time. At the start of the war the PAK 38 was already in development as was the PAK 40, and KWK variants of these are logical. So the limited production runs of the Czech French 47mm ATGuns, along with the 50L42 KWK38 would not be tolerated. The captured guns could instead be used to converted a limited number of Obsolete tanks into SPATs, instead of rebuilding those obsolete tanks...which BTW happened through mid war in some cases.

But the 50L42 gun production would have instead come out as smaller number of 50L60. Further based on a priority these guns could have been built as KWK instead of PAK until all tanks are suitably ungraded. Remember in 1941 > 2100 x 50L60 were produced and 98% of those were PAK.

By that same token 37mm PAK production might have to continued longer since the expanding tank production could demand all available 50L60 construction. An alternative solution to the PAK probem would be needed.

PS: in Russia only 1 tank out of ten were T-34/KV in 1941. In 1942 it was roughly 1/2 & 1/2, so even if the 50L60 is ineffective it would be more than sufficent for the rest.In any event 50L60 could deal with T-34 armor frontally but only in limited ranges and areas.

The solution to these problems could be in ammo design, not constantly changing calibers and hugh logistical tails in the process.
 
The solution to these problems could be in ammo design, not constantly changing calibers and hugh logistical tails in the process.

Good point. By the constant changing of tank caliber the Germans made a logistical nightmare for themselves. They would probably have been better off standardizing on a single basic caliber and improving the ammunition.

Does anyone know if 50mm is a reasonable size for a HEAT or long-rod penetrator round?

If so the Germans might have developed tank ammunition along those lines for the 50L60, assuming of course that the improved ammo is sufficient against the T34.

They could continue using AT guns against the KV series for at least a little while.
 
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