improve Japanese ASW pre WW2

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by tigercat, Nov 9, 2019.

  1. tigercat Well-Known Member

    Dec 10, 2011
    Japanese ASW warfare was definitely their Cinderella service hugely neglected and undervalued it saw too little investment too late .

    The only way I can see of getting it marginally improved is by upping the Japanese ASW involvement in WW1 and getting someone involved into a senior position .

    The Japanese as an island nation with a very good working relationship with RN could have and should have learned lessons from WW1 . They could probably have had some surplus ASW assets , For example the Kil class .
  2. astor88 Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2007
    You might start with a 2nd delegation of japanese naval officers visiting UK [first in the late 20's] Where it is mentioned by
    a RN submarine officer that the german navy came within 4 - 6 weeks of forcing the government to surrender by submarine
    and that island nations are very vulnerable to submarines...
    tigercat likes this.
  3. Cryhavoc101 Well-Known Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    1123 6536 5321
    Have the threat of Submarine attacks on the Japanese Merchant Marine be far more likely in the 30s

    For example the Dutch base a large flotilla of Submarines in Java, the British do the same in Singapore (although all are withdrawn in 1939)

    Ahh I got it - the Chinese start operating submarines after the Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 31 and then start to use them against them from 37 reaping a toll off the coast of Japan until the IJN gets their act together.

    A sort of equivalent to Operation Drumbeat with the IJN and Japanese merchant fleet totally unprepared for this unexpected type of warfare

    Not sure who helps them...maybe the Germans they after all had advisors in the Chinese Army
    SwampTiger likes this.
  4. I want to learn Well-Known Member

    Oct 11, 2013
    I don’t know if the Chinese would resort to unrestricted submarine warfare. Too much risk of sinking a ship of an otherwise sympathetic neutral. I forget the relevant treaties but I think it’s one of those things that’s technically a war crime that the Allies ignored at Nuremberg because they had practiced it extensively themselves.
    jsb likes this.
  5. jsb Well-Known Member

    Jun 30, 2013
    The main lesson of WWI is that wars between large allied blocks of major powers are long and decided by economic and industrial strength rather than élan.......

    So IJN would learn that fighting US/GB/+ isnt going to work and so why bother with ASW training as its only going to slow down your loss in a long war you cant win?
    RamscoopRaider likes this.
  6. Cryhavoc101 Well-Known Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    1123 6536 5321
    They could initially practice Cruiser rules and then after the Rape of Nanjing......well lets just say the Chinese submariners better the '3 alls' lesson the Japanese have taught them
  7. Jellico Well-Known Member

    Dec 14, 2017
    That is sort of the point isn't it. If Japan hasn't won in the first 6 months all the ASW in the world isn't going to help them against either a major power or a non power.
    Derwit and RamscoopRaider like this.
  8. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

    Feb 2, 2013
    Let the IJA be responsible for it.
    No joke, they were better at it with their escort carriers and Autogyros that flwe from them.
  9. Cryhavoc101 Well-Known Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    1123 6536 5321
    And further to the point like Op Drumbeat the idea and consideration that Subs could operate around the coast of Japan from bases many 1000s of miles away from their bases is......
  10. CV12Hornet Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2013
    What you really need to do is change the mindset. The Japanese were wholly focused on the Kantai Kessen, and it shows in their procurement. Their entire fleet is focused on surface combat to a monomaniacal degree.

    And if you wean them off Kantai Kessen... well, now we’re starting to get into ASB territory.
    WaterproofPotatoes and eltf177 like this.
  11. Jellico Well-Known Member

    Dec 14, 2017
    But what else works for them? Japan can't win a long war. If the Russians had held out an extra year in 1904 even they would have won. Japan can't invade a peer power to end a war. They can't economically strangle one. All they can do is win a big flashy battle and shock an enemy into submission. Good ASW just drags out the inevitable.

    It is the same territory as "Why didn't Germany build strategic bombers?". It takes resources away from their more immediate needs.
  12. eltf177 Well-Known Member

    May 10, 2007
    This exactly. Do well and you get assigned to the Combined Fleet. Do poorly and get assigned to the ASW fleet where you are scorned and ridiculed.

    Japan is only planning a short war, so ASW is unnecessary. And they can't win a long war. It's a complete no-win situation.

    I agree, better ASW will help Japan in the long run but it won't help them win the war - just prolong it for a few months, a year at best.
    jsb and WaterproofPotatoes like this.