Implications of a more powerful French Navy

[Georgie Porgie]

Well, you mentioned a richer France. That has impacts beyond just "What if France makes better decisions"?

France doesn't need to be richer, just better at finances. With the Glorious Revolution putting Dutch financial expertese into British hands the government was able to reorganise the Navy (see Samuel Pepys' diaries) and to build the largest factory in Europe (Portsmouth Dockyard) to support its navy. France didn't have this oportunity.

Without wishing to state the obvious Britain is much smaller than France, so the cost of gathering raw materials is less and could be done inland if necessary (such as the Dutch attacks on Chatham). When France needed to move materials between dockyards it HAD to use the sea (and was therefore vunerable to British attacks) as the road system in France made movement of large amounts of supplies imposible.

If France wants to match (or exceed) the RN it must:
1) Have the will to invest in the navy over the army (and therefore need secure borders);
2) Have the financial infrastructure to allow the outfitting of a navy and to support its lenght of time at sea;
3) Have a road system that allows easy access to all the dockyears from anywhere in France;
4) More oak forsts;
5) Formalised basic training for officers and men with promotion by merit as well as birth.

Or in otherwords if France wants to beat the Brits at sea it needs to become more British!

 

[phx1138]

You mentioneed "around 1500", so I choose Gunegate and Senlis

Fair point. I was thinking nearer, & especially after.

Huguenots - I really have no idea how to do it, but Iit might work like the pilgrims of OTL, send them away to a settler colony

I wouldn't veto it, but absent evidence of something like French Voortrekkers, I have trouble believing it.

Spain in Italy - my reasong is:
France is more interested in the North (and colonies)
France beats Maximilian, The Habsburgs are weaker and don't marry into the Spanish Royal House. Thus France does NOT feel entangled by the Habsburgs (and the Spanish don't get the Netherlands )

Spain is not as powerful as OTL AND Frnace likes that Spain is occupied in Italy instead of being interested in the French South

I can buy that. Provided two things, that is: one, you can do it after 1495, & two, you can come up with a good reason for France to avoid Italy (contrary to OTL).

That said, I'm not entirely sure it follows TTL Spain necessarily is weaker than OTL, so....

 

[Simreeve]

These kinds of changes need a grasp of their importance, & they're big ones for a navy not adopting them. So, a change to the French Navy that leads to them is on the right scale for me. The questions I have are, why does it happen TTL, as opposed to why it didn't? More ships, alone, don't drive that AFAICT.

Britain had good domestic sources of copper, without needing to import: What was the situation for France?

 

[Blurgle]

A larger Royal Navy - especially since there are so many additional ships that the English will seize, and incorporate into their fleet, after defeating the French in battle. The French are not much of a maritime nation.

Hm. If Henry VIII seizes more ships from France and consequently has a larger navy, will he put as much money into shipbuilding as he did in OTL, or will he build more device forts? Or will he beef up the fortification of the North?

Then again, maybe he'll just fritter the money away like he so often did.

 

[phx1138]

Britain had good domestic sources of copper, without needing to import: What was the situation for France?

I honestly have no clue at all.

 

[Captain Jack]

There was some discussion about wether or not French ships were superior to British ones in the 18th century. There is an article on the Navweaps Technical Board about this that I found very informative. The essence of it was that French ships were a) optimized for ideal conditions, b) consistently fitted with guns that were too large for their structure to properly support, and c) much of the belief in French superiority comes from the desire of British captains to sell their prizes. The better they made the captured ship sound, the more they got paid.

Here's the link to the article: http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-057.htm

 

[Elfwine]

There was some discussion about wether or not French ships were superior to British ones in the 18th century. There is an article on the Navweaps Technical Board about this that I found very informative. The essence of it was that French ships were a) optimized for ideal conditions, b) consistently fitted with guns that were too large for their structure to properly support, and c) much of the belief in French superiority comes from the desire of British captains to sell their prizes. The better they made the captured ship sound, the more they got paid.

Here's the link to the article: http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-057.htm

It would be nice to see more on that. It all sounds very credible, but it also sounds a little too convenient for want of a better term.

But it would support what Simreeve noted earlier - designs that had certain advantages in some senses, but in practice some very serious handicaps.

If France wants to match (or exceed) the RN it must:
1) Have the will to invest in the navy over the army (and therefore need secure borders);
2) Have the financial infrastructure to allow the outfitting of a navy and to support its lenght of time at sea;
3) Have a road system that allows easy access to all the dockyears from anywhere in France;
4) More oak forsts;
5) Formalised basic training for officers and men with promotion by merit as well as birth.

1) France had secure borders OTL. Except maybe with Spain, but that has a bloody mountain range.

I don't know about 2 and 3 as far as they were worse than England, and I'm not sure how much English ships used English oak.

But #5 would be really useful.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

The version I heard was that French ships were sweet sailers. This is very important for frigates that need to be fast and manoevrable, less so for other classes of ships.

Plus some of the other discussion above.

 

[Captain Jack]

The version I heard was that French ships were sweet sailers. This is very important for frigates that need to be fast and manoevrable, less so for other classes of ships.

Plus some of the other discussion above.

The way I understood it was that French ships were designed and rigged to be, and indeed were, superb sailers in ideal conditions but where noticeably inferior when presented with anything other than ideal conditions.

 

[phx1138]

Given France is building more ships, does this force France to look for more/better forests? Like, frex, Newfoundland?

Does the number of ships drive improvements in merchant shipping? Does it drive demand in fishing? (Grand Banks, frex.) Or improve fishing ships? Or demand &/or capability for whalers?

And does France discover the "lime juice solution" before RN? Or sooner than OTL? (IIRC, this had been known for centuries, then forgotten, then rediscovered.)

Thinking of whalers, do (even slightly) improved whalers make Pacific whaling happen sooner? And does this lead to opening Japan &/or China sooner?

 

[phx1138]

Bump...

Francophiles lost interest so fast?

 

[Malta]

The question I have is what sort of Military Training Institution did France have that focused on the Navy? It seems that before the era of Military Academies and a good deal into it most naval and for that matter military training was done by Hands On Experience.

 

[HunterX]

1) France had secure borders OTL. Except maybe with Spain, but that has a bloody mountain range.

How are you defining secure borders here, because that really isn't true for France's borders in the North and East. That's actually where much of their fighting with the Habsburgs took place, not in the Pyrenees. The Habsburg possessions in the Netherlands and Franche-Comte are France's biggest concerns outside of Italy for much of this period.

 

[Elfwine]

How are you defining secure borders here, because that really isn't true for France's borders in the North and East. That's actually where much of their fighting with the Habsburgs took place, not in the Pyrenees. The Habsburg possessions in the Netherlands and Franche-Comte are France's biggest concerns outside of Italy for much of this period.

I'm defining "France is more of a threat to Habsburgia than vice-versa" as secure borders.

France had been successfully pushing east since the middle ages - and the fighting in Italy starts with France attacking, not with France being attacked from Italy.

Spain at least has the high quality tericos, thus the comment on it being less secure.

But the idea that France was practically besieged by the "encircling" Habsburgs is hard to swallow when France is seizing Lorraine, claiming Milan, and eying the Low Countries - what threat to French control of say, Champagne, did the Habsburgs pose for most of this period?

 

[HunterX]

I'm defining "France is more of a threat to Habsburgia than vice-versa" as secure borders.

France had been successfully pushing east since the middle ages - and the fighting in Italy starts with France attacking, not with France being attacked from Italy.

Spain at least has the high quality tericos, thus the comment on it being less secure.

Those Tercios were fighting France elsewhere. Spain wasn't invading through the Pyrenees.

But the idea that France was practically besieged by the "encircling" Habsburgs is hard to swallow when France is seizing Lorraine, claiming Milan, and eying the Low Countries - what threat to French control of say, Champagne, did the Habsburgs pose for most of this period?

The encirclement was that France's influence and expansion were checked for centuries. France didn't seize Lorraine until later in this time period, and lost to the Habsburgs in Italy. They didn't even secure Franche-Comte until the latter half of the 17th century. If we're talking about a POD around 1500, France has just been forced to concede Flanders and Franche Comte, and soon Charles V will come around and try to reclaim the rest of the Burgundian inheritance. We also get Spain's intervention in the French Wars of Religion. France's north/east borders were its least stable and the source of most of the conflicts it was drawn into, not what I would call secure.

 

[Elfwine]

The encirclement was that France's influence and expansion were checked for centuries.

That is a far cry from threatening France, however.

France didn't seize Lorraine until later in this time period, and lost to the Habsburgs in Italy.

Yes, they failed to expand into Italy. Poor France, not gaining all the territory its kings wanted.

They didn't even secure Franche-Comte until the latter half of the 17th century. If we're talking about a POD around 1500, France has just been forced to concede Flanders and Franche Comte, and soon Charles V will come around and try to reclaim the rest of the Burgundian inheritance. We also get Spain's intervention in the French Wars of Religion. France's north/east borders were its least stable and the source of most of the conflicts it was drawn into, not what I would call secure.

France's north/east borders are also where France expanded the most.

I would not call a nation that generally saw gains rather than losses as "threatened" in the same sense an England with a weak navy is vulnerable to invasion.

 

[HunterX]

The context of this is whether or not France's borders are secure enough for them to invest in their navy at the cost of the army. As long as Spain/the Habsburgs hold the Netherlands and Franche Comte, I'm not sure any French King is going to be inclined to do that. Whether or not Spain was a threat to seize core French territory is really a side issue, they were an active menace on France's borders holding territory that French King's considered rightfully theirs. And that's going to get priority over naval investment.

 

[Elfwine]

The context of this is whether or not France's borders are secure enough for them to invest in their navy at the cost of the army. As long as Spain/the Habsburgs hold the Netherlands and Franche Comte, I'm not sure any French King is going to be inclined to do that. Whether or not Spain was a threat to seize core French territory is really a side issue, they were an active menace on France's borders holding territory that French King's considered rightfully theirs. And that's going to get priority over naval investment.

Well, that's the thing - is this a necessity or a preference (not necessarily an ill-founded preference, but a matter of priorities)?

By the time of the War of Austrian Succession or when Britain is colonizing India and diminishing French influence there, the issues of the 16th century have faded away - but France is still viewing the European continent as the place it wants to spend its money and manpower.

 

[phx1138]

The question in my mind is, & has been, what France does if it's not "navy at the expense of army", but more money for both.

 

[Elfwine]

The question in my mind is, & has been, what France does if it's not "navy at the expense of army", but more money for both.

IMO, "focus even more on what they were doing OTL, because France's kings didn't get how valuable commercial-naval power was."

But for thread's sake, I'm ignoring that - as France demonstrated in the American Revolution after building between the Seven Years War and entering the Revolution, they most certainly could have chosen otherwise and could have manned and made ships.

That didn't end so well (the Battle of the Saints is more relevant than Yorktown here), but it indicates that given the resources, the French navy could be a significant force.

And France was neither as prosperous or as well administered as it could have been, so money and things related to money could be fixed (so this what if can go forward).

One thing I'd note: Even if France -does- develop more sea power, and does use it - I think ultimately France will see its colonies as valuable to the extent they contribute to its continental aims. Benign neglect of its settler colonies seems unlikely, and it does seem at least reasonably possible that regiments (possibly officered by Metropolitan France, possibly not) will be raised there for regular service - or at least that'll be tried.

Not sure that's going to be a good idea, but that's not the point.