Imperium Osmani

I was reading that earlier.

On a side note, I think that's the most I've seen AHP not break into a massive argument in a thread dealing with the OE,
which of course means the whole 'Muslems is bad and cantz do n e thing' meme is dying, thankfully.

Yes indeed.

But more importantly that I posted the link because of his point about Bosnia. To be honest, I always thought of this TL as an Ottoman wank because it is to small territorial to become that powerfull, if only relatively slightly. I can't say anything for your design in Chad because while certainly Ottoman has better access and familiarity of the region, and I doubt that there will be France explorer visiting eastern Sudan, as while Europeans can think of the region as savage land yet reached by civilization as much as they want, it had been long under Ottoman's de facto sphere of economic and religious influence, and thus I doubt Ottoman would give it, I'm not knowledgeable enough to properly "annihilate" your scenario here.

I hold similar stance to your decision for Bosnia here, too, for pretty much the similar reason. But Pasha has pointed a pretty interesting information in that thread. Whenever I imagine how large would the masses of Croats and/or Hungarians be needed to make your scenario, honestly it frightens me :eek: But I'm pretty much in the same position regarding this as I am in the Chad issue above. As for the strength of TTL Ottoman Empire and the speed of its modernization though, I have become convinced that it would've been impossible without Bosnia. If you want to maintain independent Bosnia scenario, then I think Ottoman Empire ITTL should modernize later than your current proposition.
 
Whenever I imagine how large would the masses of Croats and/or Hungarians be needed to make your scenario, honestly it frightens me :eek:

It's not numbers so much as it is national identities and certain political differences, Bosnia-Croatia never disliked the OE (they're close allies after all), just they came to a political cross roads, those in Bosnia-Croatia were majority in favour of Republicanism and had developed a culture connected to, but unique from the overall Ottoman culture.


As for the strength of TTL Ottoman Empire and the speed of its modernization though, I have become convinced that it would've been impossible without Bosnia. If you want to maintain independent Bosnia scenario, then I think Ottoman Empire ITTL should modernize later than your current proposition.

Actually the OE, while having developed industrial capacity did'nt have a real Industrial Revolution until the 20's, which is partially why ITTL, even though the OE is sitting on a massive amount of Oil they only extract it in Iraq and Dubai.

I did consider having it keep Bosnia originally because I knew the region was very resource useful, but in the end I figured, with what it had thus far doing so would, well probably make it a Hyperpower, and I did'nt want to wank it.
 
1) It's not numbers so much as it is national identities and certain political differences, Bosnia-Croatia never disliked the OE (they're close allies after all), just they came to a political cross roads, those in Bosnia-Croatia were majority in favour of Republicanism and had developed a culture connected to, but unique from the overall Ottoman culture.




2) Actually the OE, while having developed industrial capacity did'nt have a real Industrial Revolution until the 20's, which is partially why ITTL, even though the OE is sitting on a massive amount of Oil they only extract it in Iraq and Dubai.

I did consider having it keep Bosnia originally because I knew the region was very resource useful, but in the end I figured, with what it had thus far doing so would, well probably make it a Hyperpower, and I did'nt want to wank it.

1) The thing is, why and how exactly this national identity did emerge in the first place, without seriously large number of Croats to make them at least third of the population ? Bosnia had more muslims than even Bulgaria......

If you can have the border muslims pretty much cut off from the rest of muslim part of the empire, then it's maybe possible. But seriously, without ethnic-cleansing the muslims, what else other than mass exodus of Croatians ? There will also be the issues of how to trigger the migration..... Maybe Hungarian racism would be a good candidate, but to what extreme can be possible ? Not to mention on why Ottomans would agree with the seccession.....

2) Well, a better starting point to exploit the oil does make it very good for the Ottomans. But to make them a hyper power will pretty much require everyone else screwed enough. USA alone will make it pretty much difficult for Ottomans to become a hyperpower, though it will work both ways. It will be as much a multipolar world with Ottoman Empire with Bosnia as much with Ottoman Empire without Bosnia, though the later seems to be will be to weak to make it a primus interpares of the world, but the whole Caliphate thing (amongst other things) can still make it a very worthy challenge to the one acting as global primus interpares.....
 
1) The thing is, why and how exactly this national identity did emerge in the first place, without seriously large number of Croats to make them at least third of the population ? Bosnia had more muslims than even Bulgaria......

The identity developed as a result of their position and normal political evolution.


If you can have the border muslims pretty much cut off from the rest of muslim part of the empire, then it's maybe possible. But seriously, without ethnic-cleansing the muslims, what else other than mass exodus of Croatians ? There will also be the issues of how to trigger the migration..... Maybe Hungarian racism would be a good candidate, but to what extreme can be possible ? Not to mention on why Ottomans would agree with the seccession.....

It actually started off as just Bosnia, it did'nt become Bosnia-Croatia until after the Great War, in which it was granted the Dalmatian coast and most of the Croatian lands.

As for the secession, well even though it became de jure independent, it remainded de facto part of the Empire.
The Ottomans excepted the situation since it makes more sense to do that than to forcefully keep it de jure part of the Empire while pissing off the people their in the process.

That all said I think I might not have made all that clear initialy, so I suppose when I do make the thread just for the TL itself I'll rewrite some things to clarify that.

2) Well, a better starting point to exploit the oil does make it very good for the Ottomans. But to make them a hyper power will pretty much require everyone else screwed enough. USA alone will make it pretty much difficult for Ottomans to become a hyperpower, though it will work both ways. It will be as much a multipolar world with Ottoman Empire with Bosnia as much with Ottoman Empire without Bosnia, though the later seems to be will be to weak to make it a primus interpares of the world, but the whole Caliphate thing (amongst other things) can still make it a very worthy challenge to the one acting as global primus interpares.....

It is indeed a Multi-polar world with Anglo-Franco-German Europe, Sino-Japanese Asia, the U.S., India, and, to a lesser extent, Australia.
 
Oh, and about Tchad, while you did make some good points, and I considered it, in the end though the major reason I decided against
it was that it would mean I'd have to change literally more than three-dozen maps.
 
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