Imperium Osmani

1) The British never had control or overt influence over it ITTL, as their attention was primarily in South Africa and the Subcontinent.




2) The inner borders were'nt actually formalized until the end of the 19th century, by which point France had already been making in roads, and since the Ottomans and the French had generally good relations they basically came to an agreement that both sides found acceptable.

1) Actually British meddlings in East Africa was because of its geographic position : pretty much situated between South Africa and sub continent. Without having Egypt in hands, its position was vital as a buffer to ensure security of access to India and India itself, pretty dangerous to leave it to other powers....

2) Would expanding its influence in Africa through Ottoman expansion be more efficient to the French ? Maybe army's adventure in SaharaITTL won't be as unfavorable to French public as IOTL, but it's still be cheaper to reach Sudans from the established Ottoman facilitations along the Nile rather than from the other side of Africa......
 
1) Actually British meddlings in East Africa was because of its geographic position : pretty much situated between South Africa and sub continent. Without having Egypt in hands, its position was vital as a buffer to ensure security of access to India and India itself, pretty dangerous to leave it to other powers....

It's not that hard to have incompetent people in charge at the right times. ;)


2) Would expanding its influence in Africa through Ottoman expansion be more efficient to the French ? Maybe army's adventure in SaharaITTL won't be as unfavorable to French public as IOTL, but it's still be cheaper to reach Sudans from the established Ottoman facilitations along the Nile rather than from the other side of Africa......

Actually, I thought about that, I'm just not sure how to incorporate it.
Basically the idea I had was that after the Crimean War the French gained permission to traverse Ottoman territory for exploratory and (limited)
military reasons, leading to a kind of pincer exploration.
 
1) It's not that hard to have incompetent people in charge at the right times. ;)




2) Actually, I thought about that, I'm just not sure how to incorporate it.
Basically the idea I had was that after the Crimean War the French gained permission to traverse Ottoman territory for exploratory and (limited)
military reasons, leading to a kind of pincer exploration.

1) It's also quite hard though to breach the natural advantages provided by geopolitical realities and the apparent difference in their respective naval muscles.... ;)

Also, Zanzibar IOTL hosted a good number of Indian investment, so it really wasn't only strategic matter, especially knowing that the area isn't so poor at all.....

2) I'm not sure how to do that though, but I'd doubt France would be so bothered to send men down the Nile if it would be enough just by having the Ottomans (who were much more knowledgeable about the area anyway) do it their own....
 
Last edited:
1) It's also quite hard though to breach the natural advantages provided by geopolitical realities and the apparent difference in their respective naval muscles.... ;)

Also, Zanzibar IOTL hosted a good number of Indian investment, so it really wasn't only strategic matter, especially knowing that the area isn't so poor at all.....

Well I usually have Britain doing really well in TL's, so I decided to have them do less so.

Incidentally do to Zanzibar's position and such I do have it becoming an African Singapore, but I'm still wroking up to the modern era.


2) I'm not sure how to do that though, but I'd doubt France would be so bothered to send men down the Nile if it would be enough just by having the Ottomans (who were much more knowledgeable about the area anyway) do it their own....

Like I said, not really sure on the details, but the French are more interested in colonizing North Africa ITTL.
 
1) Well I usually have Britain doing really well in TL's, so I decided to have them do less so.




2) Like I said, not really sure on the details, but the French are more interested in colonizing North Africa ITTL.

1) With nothing ill intended, but people can't make things happen by only willing it.

If you want Britain having less gain in Africa, maybe it'll suffice by having Portuguese Angola and Mozambique colonies adjacent to each other, in exchange for Delagoa bay. I guess it will be a cheaper way to make a buffer between British South Africa and French Congo rather than paying the cost of administrating the buffer zone your own....

2) Well, aren't we going to be in never ending thirst for details by being an alt-historian ? ;)
 
1) With nothing ill intended, but people can't make things happen by only willing it.

Ok, ok I give in.

Since Zanzibar never plays a big role ITTL's history I'll just change the map and have it be British, that actually gives me an idea to.

Oh, and we have been talking about just the island of Zanzibar, correct?


2) Well, aren't we going to be in never ending thirst for details by being an alt-historian ? ;)

I've been considering writing something for this, but the problem is I don't really know who was in charge at the time in France and such,
and I don't have the time right now to really go look into that.


Basically in the 1860's the Ottomans allowed France passage through their African territory, this lead to some adventurous French explorers
braving the harshness of inner Africa and exploring further inland both from the Ottoman Frontier and from French Algeria.

Over time as the explorers came back with tales of their exploits and finds, some real some not so real a Romanticized image of Northern Africa
entered popular culture, now at the same time the French government had a growing interest in controlling North Africa, for strategic reasons
and for prestige.

The popular image of North Africa meant that their was wide-spread support for colonization and expansion, leading to France establishing
colonial rule over as much of North Africa as possible.

In the 1880's, the Ottomans and the French established a formal border between the Southern Libya region and 'French Central Africa'.
 
Ok, ok I give in.

Since Zanzibar never plays a big role ITTL's history I'll just change the map and have it be British, that actually gives me an idea to.

Oh, and we have been talking about just the island of Zanzibar, correct?

No, the whole realm under Zanzibar's suzerainty, which obviously includes East Africa mainland.

Though that doesn't mean it should stretch as far as Katanga as IOTL, especially since they'll be facing French instead of Leopold's personal private company.....
 
No, the whole realm under Zanzibar's suzerainty, which obviously includes East Africa mainland.

Though that doesn't mean it should stretch as far as Katanga as IOTL, especially since they'll be facing French instead of Leopold's personal private company.....

Hm, well I suppose I'll think of some reason other than luck, though to be honest the back-history outside of the Ottomans is'nt really important
to me since my focus has been getting it to 1950 onwards, since that's where most of my detailed ideas and things are.
 
Last edited:
Given that I think I need to get some of my ideas together I'm going to post things as I come up with them, eventually starting a true
Timeline thread once I've established everything.

Feedback and suggestions are of course welcome.
 
The below is part of my modern history, which honestly I've done the most on.

The Supranational Unions of the world;


African Union:
The African Union started out with the goal of uniting the entirety of Africa in a communal organization in the 1960's, however the early leaders
were fierce independentists and ideologues to varying degree, resulting in the organization starting out small.
The AU has changed over the years, moderating many of its ideological positions and has now essentially become the Northern African Union in
everything but name.

The AU, while not having the degree of integration found in some of the other supranational polities is integrated to a fair degree with a common
currency and single economy and the development of a common political system.

The AU, if considered a single entity would be a Great Power, having the 8th largest economy, and a good sized military.


Asian Common Union:
The Asian Common Union (general english translation) has its roots in the East Asian Defence Union.
In the 1950's, when the CUSR-allied Mongolian government was forced from power in a popular revolution China and Japan were quick to support
them, leading to the formation of the East Asian Defence Union.
This marked the beginning of closer relations between Japan, China, Mongolia and Manjuku.

The ACU is a unique case among supranational entities, while it has a single economy & currency, a common foreign policy and joint military
overall integration has been slow until recently.

The ACU is one of the most powerful polities, having the largest common economy, the largest combined population and among the largest
combined military forces in the world and as a result a significant amount of power in international politics.


East African Federation:
The East African Union came into existance in the 1970's when the nations of East Africa, surrounded on two sides by major blocs came
together to form the East African Community.
Over time the EAC evolved into the EAF.

Despite some cultural and linguistic issues (German, English and Swahili are all official languages) the EAF has integrated more and more over
time and has more or less become a single nation, though its component states are still technically sovereign entities.

The EAF, do to its strategic political and economic position has managed to develop a robust economy (13th largest) and a considerable amount
of diplomatic influence for its size.


Eurasian Union:
The Eurasian Union traces its roots to the first half of the 20th century when the Ottoman Empire and its allies were developing closer relations.
The EaU developed from the Eurasian Community, which itself developed from the Eurasian Defence Union & Eurasian Economic Community.
The EaU has grown over time to include the Caucuses and parts of Central Asia and is likely to continue to grow over time.

The EaU is highly integrated, second only to the EAF and CAS, and many suspect that by the late 2030's it will have fully Federated.

The EaU is generally considered the most powerful entity on Earth, having the second largest economy, the single most powerful military and
a great degree of prestige and 'soft power'.


European Confederation:
The European Confederation, originally the European Community, came into existance in the 1950's when the European powers, uncomfortable
with the CUSR to the East and the growing (though non-threatening) power of the EEC to the South as well as their own individual power
weakening came together to form the European Community, a military alliance and free trade zone.
Over the decades the European Community evolved into the European Confederation, however unlike the EaU integration has been slow and
held-up for many reasons, ranging from sovereignty issues to trade issues to the ever-present situation of Italy, who may or may not (depending
on who you ask) decide to leave the EC to join the EaU.

The EC has a common economy and currency (though Lithuania and Italy have opt-outs), while politicaly it's adopted a multi-speed approach
with some members being more integrated than others.

The EC is generally considered to be the third most powerful polity, having the fourth largest economy, a (theoretical) combined military force
rivaling the EaU and holds a considerable amount of sway in international politics.


North American Community:
The North American Community came into existance in the 1980's when the United States, Canada and Mexico created the North American Economic
Community.
In the 1990's, following the admission of Central America and the Dominican Republic the NAEC was replaced by the NAC.

The NAC is in the process of developing a common economy and their are talks of a common currency and some have even suggested a North
American Parliament, however the direction of the NAC is still in flux, though with regionalism popular in its constituent countries its future looks bright.

If the NAC were to be considered a single entity it would have the third largest economy, a very strong military force and a fair amount of sway
in political issues, given its general good relations with the rest of the world.


Scandinavian Union:
The Scandinavian Union began as a sui generis Union of Denmark, Sweden and Norway in the 1920's.
In the late 30's Finland was admitted and Estland, having close relations, acceded to the Union in the late 40's

Scandinavia is highly integrated, having a single economy and currency, a single military and foreign policy and a high degree ofpolitical integration.
The only thing preventing full federation is the disagreement on what form of government the federated Union should have, that of a Monarchy or
a Republic.

Scandinavia has the 11th largest economy, a moderate sized, but advanced military and a good deal of respect on the international stage.


South African Community:
The South African Community was founded in the early 80's as South Africa and Mozambique became 'newly industrialized countries' and the idea
of regional cooperation and integration began to form.

The SAC has a common economy, however while their is no common currency yet their is a single currency standard and all member nations accept
each others currencies as legal tender.
The Southern African Defence Council, founded in 2002 is responsible for military coordination and integration among the SAC.


South American Confederation:
The South American Confederation (CAS) traces its rots to the 1962 Bogota Declaration, however the South American Union did not come into
being until 1970.
In 1990, following the Treaty of La Plata the SAU became the South American Confederation.

The CAS is highly integrated with a single economy & currency, common military & foreign policy and a high degree of political integration.
While it's possible for the CAS to fully federate at the present time it has not done so as a means of encouraging the remaining South American
nations to join.

The CAS has the 5th largest economy, a respectable military force and good relations with most of the world.


South Asian Union:
The South Asian Union was founded in the 70's as a counterweight to the influence of East Asia and the EaU to the West.
The SAU has'nt changed very much since its founding, only adopting new treaties and integrating.

The SAU has a common currency and economy, a joint military and comm foreign policy, however integration overall, while not being fast,
has progressed at a steady rate and continues to do so.

The SAU has the 6th largest economy, a moderate sized military and a moderate degree of sway in international politics.


Union of South-East Asian Nations:
The Union of South-East Asian Nations was formed in the early 90's as Indonesia, Malaya and Cambodia formed the Association of South-East Asia.
East Timor joined in 1996 and Thailand (though with reservations) in 2000.
The SEAS was transformed into the USEAN in 2001 following the Jakarta Treaty.

The USEAN is in the progress of economic integration, having established a Free Trade Zone and Customs Union.
Overall the USEAN is not very integrated for a variety of reasons, particularly Thailand's (who wants to join the EaU) reluctance.

If the USEAN was a single entity it would have the 14th largest economy.

Supranational Unions.png
 
An election map of the 2010 General Elections.

The map goes by the provinces of the Vilayet's for details sake.

While Arabic, Albanian, Bulgarian, Kurdish and Armenian are all official languages I've used Turkish for all except the regional parties for simplicity reasons.

The four major parties and six largest minor parties are shown.
While their are other parties with representation, none of them are large enough to be influential beyond local politics.

While their are many Independents (20% of the legislature), no one province has more elected independents than elected party members.



Major Parties;

Demokratik Partisi (Democratic Party):
The DP is a Liberal party along the lines of the OTL Liberal Party of Canada.

Federatif Halk Partisi (Federative People's Party):
The FHP has a unique ideology developed with little outside influence, it's generally referred to as 'Ottoman Communism', however in general it
would be more accurate to describe it as a mixture of Social Libertarianism and economic Democratic Socialism.

Imparatorluk Partisi (Imperial Party):
The IP has traditionally been a conservative party and the modern party is officially Liberal Conservative, though they're more similar to OTL
'Red Tories'.

Sosyaldemokrat Partisi (Social Democratic Party):
The SDP is a traditional Social Democratic party, though it supports regional 'Fair Trade'*, setting it apart from other Leftist parties.


Minor Parties;

Devrimci İşçi Partisi (Revolutionary Worker's Party):
The DIP is a Revolutionary Socialist party, originally espousing immediate transition to a socialist economic system, it's moderated somewhat
to a stance of 'Progressively replacing capitalism with socialism over time.'.

Gōnder Demokrasiyyoh Niqinaqē (Gondar Democratic Movement):
The GDN is a regionalist party based on autonomy for the Gondar Vilâyet, their was originally a faction seeking independence, but they've long
since left to form their own party.
The GDN ideologically is generally Liberal and supports the promotion of Gondar's economy internationally.

Hay Heghapokhagan Dashnaktsutiun (Armenian Revolutionary Federation):
The ARF is a Communist party's that supports the secession of the Vilâyet of Van and Union with Armenia.

Luzande Hata Patazi (Luzande People's Party):
The LHP is a regionalist party supporting the splitting of the Southern half of the Vilâyet of Sennara into a new, autonomous Luzande Vilâyet.
Ideologically it's generally Social Democratic.

Saadet Anavatan Partisi (Felicitous Motherland Party):
The SAP's ideology is Socially Centrist to Conservative and economically Leftist.
It's generally considered overall to be part of the 'Religious Left'.

Soomaaliyeed Dimuqraadiga Xisbiya (Somali Democratic Party):
The SDX is a regionalist party that supports either the Independence of the Vilâyet of Haud or Autonomy (depending on the faction).
Overall Ideologically it's Socially Liberal and economically similar to the OTL Scandinavian model.

Election Map by Vilayet Provinces.png
 
An election map of the 2010 General Elections.

The map goes by the provinces of the Vilayet's for details sake.

While Arabic, Albanian, Bulgarian, Kurdish and Armenian are all official languages I've used Turkish for all except the regional parties for simplicity reasons.

The four major parties and six largest minor parties are shown.
While their are other parties with representation, none of them are large enough to be influential beyond local politics.

While their are many Independents (20% of the legislature), no one province has more elected independents than elected party members.



Major Parties;

Demokratik Partisi (Democratic Party):
The DP is a Liberal party along the lines of the OTL Liberal Party of Canada.

Federatif Halk Partisi (Federative People's Party):
The FHP has a unique ideology developed with little outside influence, it's generally referred to as 'Ottoman Communism', however in general it
would be more accurate to describe it as a mixture of Social Libertarianism and economic Democratic Socialism.

Imparatorluk Partisi (Imperial Party):
The IP has traditionally been a conservative party and the modern party is officially Liberal Conservative, though they're more similar to OTL
'Red Tories'.

Sosyaldemokrat Partisi (Social Democratic Party):
The SDP is a traditional Social Democratic party, though it supports regional 'Fair Trade'*, setting it apart from other Leftist parties.


Minor Parties;

Devrimci İşçi Partisi (Revolutionary Worker's Party):
The DIP is a Revolutionary Socialist party, originally espousing immediate transition to a socialist economic system, it's moderated somewhat
to a stance of 'Progressively replacing capitalism with socialism over time.'.

Gōnder Demokrasiyyoh Niqinaqē (Gondar Democratic Movement):
The GDN is a regionalist party based on autonomy for the Gondar Vilâyet, their was originally a faction seeking independence, but they've long
since left to form their own party.
The GDN ideologically is generally Liberal and supports the promotion of Gondar's economy internationally.

Hay Heghapokhagan Dashnaktsutiun (Armenian Revolutionary Federation):
The ARF is a Communist party's that supports the secession of the Vilâyet of Van and Union with Armenia.

Luzande Hata Patazi (Luzande People's Party):
The LHP is a regionalist party supporting the splitting of the Southern half of the Vilâyet of Sennara into a new, autonomous Luzande Vilâyet.
Ideologically it's generally Social Democratic.

Saadet Anavatan Partisi (Felicitous Motherland Party):
The SAP's ideology is Socially Centrist to Conservative and economically Leftist.
It's generally considered overall to be part of the 'Religious Left'.

Soomaaliyeed Dimuqraadiga Xisbiya (Somali Democratic Party):
The SDX is a regionalist party that supports either the Independence of the Vilâyet of Haud or Autonomy (depending on the faction).
Overall Ideologically it's Socially Liberal and economically similar to the OTL Scandinavian model.
Nice map, Iori!:)
Can we see a breakdown by parliament seats?
 
That reminded me, I did'nt post this after I did in the Map Thread.



The Turkish language, do to the nature of the Empire, its history and demographics demographics has developed over time in such a way that
their are now three distinct, but mutually intelligible, forms of Turkish spoken within the Osmani Imperium;


Imperial/Ottoman Turkish:
The traditional Persian and Arabic influenced language used by the traditional elite, over time, do to being unintelligible to most, it's status has
diminished to the point where it's now simply a Ceremonial Language, used for functions involving the Imperial family.

West Turkish:
West Turkish, also known as European Turkish is a regional version of Turkish that developed following early attempts at eliminating Persian and
Arabic influences from Turkish.
West Turkish is almost exclusively spoken in Western Anatolia and Southern Rumelia. The amount of people who speak it as a first language has
stabilized at around 6 million.

General Turkish:
General Turkish or just 'Turkish' to many is the dominant version of Turkish spoken in the Empire and is also the version generally taught abroad.
G Turkish, like West Turkish uses the Latin-Turkish Alphabet, however unlike West Turkish it retains loan words from Arabic as well as the other
major languages of the Empire as well as English and a small, but noticeable number of Thai words.
 
I'll correct it before I post it again, though I am curious what exactly is the difference between Parti and Partisi?
well, thank u for correct.
Parti means "Party" however Partisi means "Their Party". Like that;
Democrat Party(Demokrat Parti), Demokrat's Party(Demokrat Partisi-Demokratın Partisi).
Look, I guess I've explained wrong. U must correct just Demokrat Parti and Sosyaldemokrat Parti, others can stay. İmparatorluk Partisi, Federatif Halk Partisi. People's Party or Imperium's Party. But we don't say Democrat's Party.
 
Last edited:
well, thank u for correct.
Parti means "Party" however Partisi means "Their Party". Like that;
Democrat Party(Demokrat Parti), Demokrat's Party(Demokrat Partisi-Demokratın Partisi).
Look, I guess I've explained wrong. U must correct just Demokrat Parti and Sosyaldemokrat Parti, others can stay. İmparatorluk Partisi, Federatif Halk Partisi. People's Party or Imperium's Party. But we don't say Democrat's Party.

Ah, ok.

I was just going off a mixture of Google translate and Turkish wikipedia pages for names.
 
Top