Imperial Russia - better opening gambit

In general : better coordination would also help a lot. ... But for that you would have to POD away the Suchomlimov-war-minister-era.
Contrary to popular opinion, Sukhomlinov was an excellent military minister.
Accusations by the "democratic authorities" to destroy 200,000 rifles of Berdan (saving storage space), this mockery of justice, in the era of the "Order №1".
Two battalions of militia, guarding the station Sarykamysh with the breakthrough there two Turkish army corps, had 10 cartridges per rifle. At the warehouses of the Caucasian Army, the number of cartridges to the rifles of Berdan No. 2 did not exceed 30 pieces per barrel.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Interesting thread with a lot of plausible PoDs, but if trying to find a simple and early one I think it would be a strong Armygroup command in the initital operations vs. Germany. Anything less than the stunning victories of OTL would be disastrous for the Germans and their commitment in the next months and Imperial Russia would be short of a humiliation.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Contrary to popular opinion, Sukhomlinov was an excellent military minister.
I very much agree with you.

But ...
His (IMO correct) taken positions and politics alienated a lot of other militaries having the ear of the tsarist court, not at least Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich, causing an awful lot of opposition to his decisions. That resulted in a rather complicated personell structure in the higher commands, where members of the two factions "controlled" and cancelled each other.
I.e. 1st army : Rennekampf communicated with his chief of staff almost entirely by letter. Similar situations were given in almost every army down to even corps levels.

That's why I referred to the PODding his era as war-minister.
It could have given - with whatever mind, defensive or offensive - a more coherent and effective overall command on all levels within the russian army.
(Well, Suchomlimov was well ready to engage on this courtier bickering games. ... not to forget his attutude to ... interesting monetary behaviors -> bribing.)
 
Haha, the parallels are tangible.
27273_1000.jpg

Where Sukhomlinov present here?
Rennenkampf was a typical cavalry general of the era, putting a routine on the shoulders of the chief of staff. You do not say that Rommel communicated with the chief of staff only by letter?
The defeat in East Prussia is the fault of General Zhilinsky. After the victory at Gumbinenne, Zhilinsky considered that the Germans would retreat beyond the Vistula. Rennenkampf received an order to pursue. The army of General Samsonov - to besiege Koenigsberg.
Instead of retreating, Hindenburg gathered strength into a fist and surrounded two Russian army corps (4 divisions) that had escaped forward.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
@BooNZ
I have to admitt : haven't given much thoughts in that direction ... yet.
But to give it a shoot :
  • Beginning october the remnants of what might be left austrian 1st and 4th armies (much less than IOTL) would try to make a stand somewhere east of Cracow. With a shorten front (just up north to the Vistula, not across it) mayby even at the Dunajec-river at Tarnow.
  • North of the Vistula, along the Nida-river would most likely be, what became the german 9th army IOTL, defending Silesia accompanied by the Corps Woyrsch at the Earthe-river line further north. But atm not much more the germans could do.
  • The even smaller remnants of austrian 3rd army might be able to hold on from New-Sandez southwards to where the Tarcza-river enters the hungarian plain
  • from there further south-east ... there won't be any austrian forces to speak of anymore. The russians would probably be for the moment stopped and not trying to push it further by logistical problem you already mentioned as the southern feet of the Carpathians, entering the hungarian plains.
  • They will try to shuffle whatever can be spent from the serbian theatre towards the carpathians to protect hungary.
  • There might be a wee "positive" effect. Now being entered upon and threatened in their very own heartland, the hungarians might ... comply a bit better to the empires joint war efforts.
  • Speaking of the serbian or balcan front : most likely A-H will skip any offensive attempt, concentrating on defending the Banat, withdrawing their line-of-defense to Slavonia (northern part of Croatia) preparing to give up Bosnia and Dalmatia ... even if only to free up as many troops as possible for the defense against the russians.

This would definitly NOT appeal very much to the bulgarians and romanians. Before the years ends there will be a LOT of diplomatic action seeking advantageous terms with Russia, much lesser with France or Britain, as Russia now seems to be the "power-house", though the true clash with Germany has still to be awaited.
Esp. if the western front works out on OTL lines, where the western Entente partners don't makes advances to speak of (yes, the "Miracle at the Marne" but : northwestern France is still in german hands and the efforts to throw them back has costly failed).

Some thoughts on Italy in such a situation : as muddy as IOTL. IOTL the austrian minister-president Stürgkh tried to persuade Franz-Josef early in the conflict to at least nominally give in to italian demands on Tyrol and Dalmatia to secure at least their neutrality. After a victoriuos end for A-H ... no need to truely honest such an offer.
ITTL Franz-Josef as well as the "rest" of the leading circles might be convinced to actually do so, offering Italy almost all of the adriatic coast, ... including Montenegro and Albania as well. When the very heartslands of the double-monarchy are at stake, who needs the Adria. IMO a quite tempting offer for Italy, esp. if coupled with "only" the need to stay neutral. So : no fighting needed at all.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
...
You do not say that Rommel communicated with the chief of staff only by letter?
???
What I meant was, that this communication happened even if Rennekampf and his chief of staff (can't find his name right now) were in the same camp, ... some 20-50 meters apart.
The defeat in East Prussia is the fault of General Zhilinsky. After the victory at Gumbinenne, Zhilinsky considered that the Germans would retreat beyond the Vistula. Rennenkampf received an order to pursue. The army of General Samsonov - to besiege Koenigsberg.
...
Rennekampf and Samsonov "against" Zhilinsky ... again the infight of pro-sukhomlinovites and anti-sukhomlinovites.
...
...
Samsonovs 2nd army to besieg Königsberg ???
 
What I meant was, that this communication happened even if Rennekampf and his chief of staff (can't find his name right now) were in the same camp, ... some 20-50 meters apart.
I think a historical anecdote, of foreign origin. General Rennenkampf was a very tough man. The Italian Turnout in front of him is suicide.

Colonel V.N. von Dreyer:
"A man perfectly educated, registered in the General Staff, sometimes witty, unusually enjoying life and almost always cheerful ... young officers wore him almost in their arms, the soldiers loved and felt that this was a real commander ".
...
"Was not distinguished by justice and impartiality and was looking for all sorts of ways to completely break down his subordinate, who for some reason did not like him. "

Rennekampf and Samsonov "against" Zhilinsky ... again the infight of pro-sukhomlinovites and anti-sukhomlinovites.
1 and 2 of the Army carried out the order of Zhilinsky, commander of the North-Western Front. Where could Sukhomlinov be between them?
Moved forward in divergent directions. To Tannenberg, the distance between the flanks reached 120 kilometers. Three-day transition.
Yes, Samsonov was ordered to besiege Koenigsberg.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
I think a historical anecdote, of foreign origin. General Rennenkampf was a very tough man. The Italian Turnout in front of him is suicide.
I have to admitt I cited 'only' other historians like Pritt Butlar and Hew Strachan. ... Surly only uneducated, biased authors relying on say-so-rumors ...

What do you mean with "Italian Turnout" ? ... esp. in this context ?

Colonel V.N. von Dreyer:
"A man perfectly educated, registered in the General Staff, sometimes witty, unusually enjoying life and almost always cheerful ... young officers wore him almost in their arms, the soldiers loved and felt that this was a real commander ".
...
"Was not distinguished by justice and impartiality and was looking for all sorts of ways to completely break down his subordinate, who for some reason did not like him. "
And what shall 'prove' this ? ... only that Rennekampf was a man with ... (at least) two very different faces ?

1 and 2 of the Army carried out the order of Zhilinsky, commander of the North-Western Front. Where could Sukhomlinov be between them?
You don't get it, right ?
It wasn't Sukhomlinov himself, who interfered with actual happenings. It was the bickering of all the officers between themself, divided into pro- and anti-Sukhomlinovites, that hampered communication and coordination of the russian forces on all levels.


Yes, Samsonov was ordered to besiege Koenigsberg.
As this IMO would state a rewrite of otherwise widespread accepted history, I would like to ask you for a reference.
(... as I have always in about half a dozen standard works as well as original sources only read that this was Rennekampfs and the 1st Armys task.)
 

BooNZ

Banned
Contrary to popular opinion, Sukhomlinov was an excellent military minister.
I am not familiar with the works of Sukhomlinov. Why do you believe Sukhomlinov was an excellent minister? OTL WW1 performance highlights systemic weaknesses in the entire Russian army and prima facie I would have expected such matters to be Sukhomlinov's responsibility. Very little about the Russian army performance in WW1 provides any indication of excellence.
 
I have to admitt I cited 'only' other historians like Pritt Butlar and Hew Strachan. )

Stay-in, sit-down strike.
I found out where the ears of this story stick out.

August 16, 1914 (Russian dates) General Rennenkampf signed an agreement on the supply of army troops for 3.5 million rubles.
The price was significantly overstated, in addition, the general exceeded his authority.
Chief of the supply department of the Staff 1st Army Major-General G.D. Yanov reported to Zhilinsky. General ordered to terminate the contract.
The result was an open conflict between Rennenkampf and the chief of staff of the army, L-Gen Milleant.
As a result, Milleant was suspended from office, formally retaining the post of chief of staff, before the opening of the post of division commander.
Appointed commander of the 4 th Infantry Division 6.9.14.
The duties of the chief of staff at this time were performed by the quartermaster-general Maj-Gen Baiov K.K.

Sukhomlinov in this conflict did not even smell. Private personal conflict in the army.
 
I am not familiar with the works of Sukhomlinov. Why do you believe Sukhomlinov was an excellent minister? OTL WW1 performance highlights systemic weaknesses in the entire Russian army and prima facie I would have expected such matters to be Sukhomlinov's responsibility. Very little about the Russian army performance in WW1 provides any indication of excellence.
I will quote Kersnovsky:

"... In three years of exceptionally hard struggle, the Russian army took 2,200,000 prisoners and 3,850 guns.
Of this number, the Germans - 250 000 prisoners and 550 guns. Austro-Hungarians - 1,850,000 prisoners and 2,650 guns. The Turk - 100,000 prisoners with 650 guns.
At the same time, France took 160,000 prisoners and 900 guns, England - 90,000 prisoners with 450 guns, and Italy - 110,000 prisoners and 150 guns.

Russian trophies six times exceeded the trophies of the other armies of Concord, taken together ... "

The figures of prisoners A-X are slightly exaggerated, but the order of the figures is correct. The war with the Turks is even more characteristic. If we compare the Sarykamysh disaster, or revenge for Gallipoli under Erzerum ... with the surrender of Townshend.
 
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