Imperial German Sealion?

I was wondering, as the Imperial German Navy was a fairly significant force, I was wondering if they had the possibility of breaking the Royal Navy enough so as to allow German troops to land on Britain. The first possibility I wonder about is as some sort of a raide at any point during the war, and the second is after a late victory in France, say a successful Spring Offensive or something similar.
 
While Jutland was inconclusive, it goes to show that the Kaiserliche Marine wouldn't have been able to decisively defeat the Royal Navy in European waters, thus making it unfeasible to launch a seaborne invasion. The main thing though is how the Germans would come up with the sufficient manpower with which to compose an invasion force in the first place.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
If the Germans had won the war in France quickly, say with a smashing victory at the Marne in 1914, then the idea of an invasion of Britain becomes a possibility. How plausible a possibility is open to debate, but it is certainly a more plausible scenario than Sealion, as the High Seas Fleet is a much more formidable force vis-a-vis the Royal Navy than Hitler's navy was in 1940.

IOTL, the High Seas Fleet was able to bombard British coastal communities on the east coast on more than one occasion.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I was wondering, as the Imperial German Navy was a fairly significant force, I was wondering if they had the possibility of breaking the Royal Navy enough so as to allow German troops to land on Britain. The first possibility I wonder about is as some sort of a raide at any point during the war, and the second is after a late victory in France, say a successful Spring Offensive or something similar.

Not really, even if they sank the most of the Grand Fleet, it would be real hard to get the supply convoys past the torpedo boats, light cruisers, destroyers, and submarines. As to a raid, yes that is doable and even makes some sense if the right target can be found.
 
You have to make some pretty unlikely assumptions.

1) Germany has to win the Continental war sometime in 1917/18 (presumably through US non-intervention) and then (without provoking such intervention) start a really intense u-boat war from bases in France. Mines are also laid thickly in British waters.

2) This campaign has to be successful enough that the RN is paralysed for lack of fuel oil. OTL it suffered serious shortages in Spring 1917, with the Grand Fleet having to cruise at three-fifths normal speed to conserve oil.

3) Germany has to insist upon (and get) armistice terms which allow German occupation of Dover and other points on Btritish soil. Also British evacuation of Ireland and establishment of German bases there.

For my money 1) is possible but the other two sound distinctly ASB-ish.
 
Incidentally is this in the right forum?

If you create a POD for the late 19th century. People have already commented before, a heavier focus on submarines by Imperial Germany could turn the tide.

But an invasion is unlikely, as if the conditions allow for an actual channel crossing, then the British would ask for peace.
 
The main problem isn't just landing troops on Britain, it's maintaining their supplies over a sustained occupation so you don't just waste an army there.
 
Remove Sealion from your brain, and look at the question from the WW1 perspective. If it became strategically viable to invade Britain, and enough whittling down of the Grand Fleet had occurred to make it feasible, why would the Germans cross the Channel to do it? The fact that the Nazis viewed the invasion as a glorified river crossing does not mean that the Imperial German army will, and there are enough seaborne invasions in the early 20th century to show that converted barges are NOT a pre-requisite. Japan's invasion of the Philippines is a perfectly good example. Take transports under close escort across the North Sea, land in Suffolk somewhere, maybe even use the famous zepellin-behind-the-lines idea to get elite teams into the British rear, and then seize a port of some kind.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Incidentally is this in the right forum?
Heh. . . oops. :eek:

Maybe a Mod can move it?


I was mostly thinking a raide would make the most sense if France were to get broken, but the British were reluctant to negotiate. A desperate ploy to get them to the negotiating table.
 
No true invasion

Both sides in the Great War posessed some degree of understanding of military reality, and IMVHO, that rules out an invasion.

Germany wouldn't attempt an invasion unless it seemed to have a reasonable chance of success. That means the Royal Navy is effectively out of the picture--never mind how it happened. But if the Royal Navy is out of the picture, then there's no need foran invasion, Britain will already be looking for peace at almost any price.

If the Royal Navy is still a threat, then any invasion is almost doomed to failure--and a force that big getting captured or wiped out would cripple the Heer.

Retreat from a seaborne invasion is very difficult, and will likely involve heavy losses--the British retreat at Galipoli was a brilliant exception.

So--conditions being right for invasion almost gaurantee peace negotiations, unless Germany has irrationally decided that it wants to occupy and keep Britian.
 
Basically it's a novel from 1903 about a couple of chaps who stumble upon an Imperial German plan to invade the UK via a surprise dash across the north sea by the Kaiserliche Marine escorting troops in barges that have been hidden in the Frisian Islands. It was fairly influential and considered by many to be the first real spy thriller that set the formula. It was more of a joke as the plot is pretty much exactly what was descibed just ten years later during the war.
 
The Empire had far better chance of pulling it off than the Reich. I say this only because the Kaiser actually had a navy worthy of the name. Of course the High Seas Fleet would still have to defeat the Home Fleet in order to pull it off.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Basically it's a novel from 1903 about a couple of chaps who stumble upon an Imperial German plan to invade the UK via a surprise dash across the north sea by the Kaiserliche Marine escorting troops in barges that have been hidden in the Frisian Islands. It was fairly influential and considered by many to be the first real spy thriller that set the formula. It was more of a joke as the plot is pretty much exactly what was descibed just ten years later during the war.

I have seen an earlier one from near 1900. The plot of this one is that the French come across the Channel and a few days later the Russians land in the midlands. The books is complete with massacres of civilians. I read the table of contents and a few pages, but evidently invasion books sold well. The French were supposed to like reading books about the Germans coming through Belgium.
 
A proper invasion is impossible. A smaller-scale raid might be possible, if the Germans organized commando units for it. Is there any way that commando raids could significantly affect, for example, the coal industry?
 
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