Imperial German Reforms

[Hashoosh]

I'm working on a TL that deals with a different late 19th and early 20th century, and Germany does not become embroiled in the Great War.

My big question is if the Confederation could be altered so that Prussia wasn't so dominating, and what the effect of a figurehead Kaiser would be. Basically, would the Reichstag and the organization of the lander be different in the case of British style consitutionalism?

 

[Pomphis]

Prussia simply was the by far largest state. For prussia to be less dominant you either need a significantly greater germany or a significantly smaller prussia. Both would require a POD much earlier.

A figurehead kaiser might result from a successful 1848 Revolution.

Sorry, but if you start with the late 19th century IMO you are stuck.

If you might have france winning greatly in 1870, prussia being split, and the german states then forming a united germany in 1880 or so. But that would be very different from the historical reich.

 

[Hashoosh]

I have a PoD that handles it. But if the Kaiser is a figurehead, would Prussia be reduced in size? There's no need for it to be united if the King has no power anyway. I was thinking of breaking the kingdom into a few consituent Kingdoms or Grand Duchies ruled by scions of the house of Hohenzollern, with the Kaiser retaining Brandenburg-Prussia.

So do you think that OTL Imperial Germany would never have reformed the states and mediatized? Say if they won or avoided WWI?

 

[matzeskatze]

Without knowing your PoD, it is hard to see where you divert and what could happen.

On the drop of the hat, the German Kaiserreich was a Federation of Princes. So a massive loss of power toward the Kanzler is Imo unlikely. Not neccecerily impossible, but you would have the have good reasons.

Then you go into the point that the German Kaiser was also King of Prussia. Two titels that are Imo not connected outside of being the most powerful entity (and winning several wars while uniting Germany).
So you could have a figurehead Kaiser but still an imensly powerful King... see where that will likely lead? A more powerful Kaiser!

The same is also true for spliting up Prussia. Why should the King do it? He would, in doing so, weaken his own family. His seat of power and the standing of his house in inter royal / aristocratic relations.

 

[Hashoosh]

The PoD is a Fredrick who doesn't have cancer combined with Wilhelm I dying in the 1870s. My thinking is that he would actively pursue limiting the power of the office throughout his reign, after realizing just who his successor is.

 

[Mirage]

Even with a relatively late pod reforms are a possibility maybe not outright dividing Prussia, but abolishing its tree class election system (irrc the spd was expecting reforms in return for their support of the war loans) and the reichtsag increasing its power.

 

[LordKalvert]

The PoD is a Fredrick who doesn't have cancer combined with Wilhelm I dying in the 1870s. My thinking is that he would actively pursue limiting the power of the office throughout his reign, after realizing just who his successor is.

Possible but be careful. Any weakening of Imperial authority, weakens the powers of the Princes which varies dramatically from state to state. This would weaken the internal cohesion of the state

Even if we have Frederick act like Victoria- losing his powers through non use rather than have them formally given up, he has to deal with the Princes. They aren't the House of Lords. They command real respect at home and some, like Bavaria, maintain real military power as well

That doesn't mean that Frederick couldn't reform the German Reich- he could simply appoint ministers based on the Reichstag's recommendations for example. It presents a lot of problems if your intending to limit William's power. He's not likely to be bound by tradition and might be inclined to reinstate his formal powers.

A side note- William is very sensitive to public opinion and openly courts it throughout his reign. Tirpitz's Naval League is just the best example. He seems to have learned from his parents mistakes that without strong public backing he couldn't accomplish anything

 

[marathag]

Almost need the Austrians to win big in 1866 to get more humbled House of Hohenzollern, and a less powerful Prussia incapable of getting their way by Military means

 

[Hashoosh]

Possible but be careful. Any weakening of Imperial authority, weakens the powers of the Princes which varies dramatically from state to state. This would weaken the internal cohesion of the state

Even if we have Frederick act like Victoria- losing his powers through non use rather than have them formally given up, he has to deal with the Princes. They aren't the House of Lords. They command real respect at home and some, like Bavaria, maintain real military power as well

Right, I was thinking that each of the constituent states retain their autonomy and decide for themselves what powers their monarchs have locally. As for the republics, it's a non-issue. At the federal level, I think that if the Kaiser is willing to reduce his own power he could bargain for a mirrored reduction of power of the princes (and kings) in the Bundestag. My understanding of the Imperial Constitution is that the Princes didn't wield considerable power on the national level anyways, that was more the President's (Kaiser) and Chancellor's purview.

That doesn't mean that Frederick couldn't reform the German Reich- he could simply appoint ministers based on the Reichstag's recommendations for example. It presents a lot of problems if your intending to limit William's power. He's not likely to be bound by tradition and might be inclined to reinstate his formal powers.

A side note- William is very sensitive to public opinion and openly courts it throughout his reign. Tirpitz's Naval League is just the best example. He seems to have learned from his parents mistakes that without strong public backing he couldn't accomplish anything

By allowing Friedrich's powers to lapse, he would be creating a tradition that Wilhelm would be loathe to contradict. Fredriech was an immensely likable man, and it's likely that he would have considerable popular support due to his political views (which the masses, though not the Junkers) would share, as well as his status as a war hero. His men greatly respected him as well, so it's likely he'll have broad based support from the army. Come his passing, Wilhelm will either be dead or old enough to have learned some things from his father, while at the same time having aged enough to have his more fanciful views from childhood mellowed out.

 

[Pomphis]

As for the republics, it's a non-issue. At the federal level, I think that if the Kaiser is willing to reduce his own power he could bargain for a mirrored reduction of power of the princes (and kings) in the Bundestag.

Bundesrat. BTW, note the terminology: Bundesrat (federal council) but Reichstag (imperial diet).

My understanding of the Imperial Constitution is that the Princes didn't wield considerable power on the national level anyways, that was more the President's (Kaiser) and Chancellor's purview

The princes as such no, but the bundesrat was powerful. It had the same powers as the reichstag WRT lawmaking and had the sole power to declare war.

 

[LordKalvert]

Right, I was thinking that each of the constituent states retain their autonomy and decide for themselves what powers their monarchs have locally. As for the republics, it's a non-issue. At the federal level, I think that if the Kaiser is willing to reduce his own power he could bargain for a mirrored reduction of power of the princes (and kings) in the Bundestag. My understanding of the Imperial Constitution is that the Princes didn't wield considerable power on the national level anyways, that was more the President's (Kaiser) and Chancellor's purview.



By allowing Friedrich's powers to lapse, he would be creating a tradition that Wilhelm would be loathe to contradict. Fredriech was an immensely likable man, and it's likely that he would have considerable popular support due to his political views (which the masses, though not the Junkers) would share, as well as his status as a war hero. His men greatly respected him as well, so it's likely he'll have broad based support from the army. Come his passing, Wilhelm will either be dead or old enough to have learned some things from his father, while at the same time having aged enough to have his more fanciful views from childhood mellowed out.

German unity is fragile especially early on. Many of the Princes resented Prussian domination and a fracturing is quite possible. If you want to break up Prussia, an easy way would be to restore the Princes deposed after the 1866 war- like Hanover. That would be popular with the People and the Princes especially if done in the 1870s


Frederick has many admirable traits but he's seen by many as dominated by his foreign wife. It was a source of great political weakness. And, while he was respected in the Army, not all of the German army was Prussian

As for William, for most of his reign he was an immensely popular monarch. He understood the need to get public opinion on his side to get his policies through. Certainly, he was more in tune with political realities than Bismark was at the end

Lots of interesting possibilities but also lots of minefields with such a POD

 

[Perkeo]

If the Austrian Empire collapses without a World War, German-Austria is likely to end up in the German Empire. Perhaps a marriage contract between the houses Hohenzollern and Habsburg - and last but not least pressure from the nationalistic middle class - will prevail against fears that the Prussian and/or Protestants might loose power.

In that case, we end up like in the 19th century - with Prussia and Austria competing for leadership. A clever Social Democrat or Liberal leadership could play them off against each other and use them to make reforms.

 

[Pomphis]

German unity is fragile especially early on. Many of the Princes resented Prussian domination and a fracturing is quite possible. If you want to break up Prussia, an easy way would be to restore the Princes deposed after the 1866 war- like Hanover. That would be popular with the People and the Princes especially if done in the 1870s

But to break up prussia germany needs to lose a war really badly. Not even WW1 resulted in prussia being broken up.

And I doubt the popularity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_V_of_Hanover

As the Austro-Prussian War started, the Prussian government sent dispatch on 15 June 1866 demanding that Hanoveran troops subject to their authority or face war.[4] Despite previously concluding Hanover wouldn't win in an armed confrontation with Prussia, George remained protective of his throne and refused the ultimatum.[5] Contrary to the wishes of the parliament, Hanover joined the Austrian camp in the war. As a result, the Prussian army occupied Hanover and the Hanoverian army surrendered on 29 June 1866, the King and royal family having fled to Austria.

 

[kreepysam]

German unity is fragile especially early on. Many of the Princes resented Prussian domination and a fracturing is quite possible. If you want to break up Prussia, an easy way would be to restore the Princes deposed after the 1866 war- like Hanover. That would be popular with the People and the Princes especially if done in the 1870s

Perhaps have Frederick offer to partition Prussia into Westphalia/Brandenburg/Prussia, with a triple crown? The junkers can have their own state, while liberals in Berlin and the west can pursue their own industrial interests. In the process, Frederick breaks Prussian domination and positions himself as a king for all Germans, not just a narrow sectional elite.

Bundesrat. BTW, note the terminology: Bundesrat (federal council) but Reichstag (imperial diet).



The princes as such no, but the bundesrat was powerful. It had the same powers as the reichstag WRT lawmaking and had the sole power to declare war.

I read somewhere (Evans?, Feuchtwanger?) that the Bundesrat was a shadowy and seldom-used branch of government, whose vetoes during the Second reich can be counted on one hand. Given that, is it really relevant? The convention that rapidly emerged was that power rested with the Chancellor, and later on the Reichstag to an increasing extent before 1914.

 

[Hashoosh]

But to break up prussia germany needs to lose a war really badly. Not even WW1 resulted in prussia being broken up.

And I doubt the popularity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_V_of_Hanover

As the Austro-Prussian War started, the Prussian government sent dispatch on 15 June 1866 demanding that Hanoveran troops subject to their authority or face war.[4] Despite previously concluding Hanover wouldn't win in an armed confrontation with Prussia, George remained protective of his throne and refused the ultimatum.[5] Contrary to the wishes of the parliament, Hanover joined the Austrian camp in the war. As a result, the Prussian army occupied Hanover and the Hanoverian army surrendered on 29 June 1866, the King and royal family having fled to Austria.

Well, the Nazis did break up Prussia into Gau in 1935 so it is possible for its dissolution without war. Obviously that's an extreme circumstances, but I can hardly see the rest of the country or even most of the Prussian people objecting to its breaking up into a few kingdoms by a reigning Hohenzollern.

 

[matzeskatze]

The problem is, the Nazis were a single party autocraty. The German Kaiserreich was not. So that point Imo is not flying.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Prussia could certainly be smaller - in fact it was heading to be smaller, with a restoration of Hannover under Ernst August after his marriage to the Kaiser's daughter.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf