So I'm writing part of my Tudor Timeline (insert shameless plug here) and dealing with the goings on in Central Europe of the 1520s. The rough plan so far is as follows: Louis and Suleiman still go to war over Hungarian tribute to the Ottoman Empire, but here Louis manages to get some Imperial support (Philip the Fair survives, and I imagine him more willing to help his son-in-law then Charles). This leads to a much better showing for Hungary, and while Suleiman manages to get some castles in Serbia, he doesn't get Belgrade and after three years everyone is ready to give up. Except that in 1524 Sigismund the Old wants to join the war (the reason: ITTL Aleksandra Lisowska [OTL's Hurrem Sultan] becomes a minor celebrity (and Sigismund's mistress) with the story that she managed to break free of Ottoman slave traders, and Sigismund wants to beat the Turk and, in his dream of dreams, free the women of the harem).

My questions are as follows:
1) How would Imperial help impact the Hungarian showing in the war? I have it initially leading to a stalemate, but would another outcome be more plausible?
2) Assuming we are at a stalemate in 1524, would the Polish military help push the Imperial-Magyar forces over the top and, if so, what's the most plausible endgame for the Christian forces, assuming we don't get the fever dream of retaking Constantinople?
 
So I'm writing part of my Tudor Timeline (insert shameless plug here) and dealing with the goings on in Central Europe of the 1520s. The rough plan so far is as follows: Louis and Suleiman still go to war over Hungarian tribute to the Ottoman Empire, but here Louis manages to get some Imperial support (Philip the Fair survives, and I imagine him more willing to help his son-in-law then Charles). This leads to a much better showing for Hungary, and while Suleiman manages to get some castles in Serbia, he doesn't get Belgrade and after three years everyone is ready to give up. Except that in 1524 Sigismund the Old wants to join the war (the reason: ITTL Aleksandra Lisowska [OTL's Hurrem Sultan] becomes a minor celebrity (and Sigismund's mistress) with the story that she managed to break free of Ottoman slave traders, and Sigismund wants to beat the Turk and, in his dream of dreams, free the women of the harem).Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900

My questions are as follows:
1) How would Imperial help impact the Hungarian showing in the war? I have it initially leading to a stalemate, but would another outcome be more plausible?
2) Assuming we are at a stalemate in 1524, would the Polish military help push the Imperial-Magyar forces over the top and, if so, what's the most plausible endgame for the Christian forces, assuming we don't get the fever dream of retaking Constantinople?


If we assume that Phillip is just an alt-Charles who is more willing to help Hungary (and rules Spain as a husband of his wife) and that everything else is the same then an answer to your question is: no impact because the help is not coming. There is an ongoing war (1521- 26). In December of 1523 the French were pushed out of Lombardy after which the Imperial forced invaded Provence. In August - September of 1524 Imperial forces had been besieging Marseille and in mid-October of 1524 Francis I invaded Italy with an army 40,000 strong and Imperial side is extremely busy until the early 1525.

The 1st possible opening is in 1525 after the battle of Pavia and it is an open question if the German contingents would agree to march all the way to Hungary. Anyway, the window of opportunity would be quite limited because in 1526 War of the League of Cognac is going to start.Besides being quite busy, Charles could not pay his troops and pretty much lost control over German and Spanish contingents with a resulting Sack of Rome in 1527. By that time Mohacs is lost day Louis is dead.
 
If we assume that Phillip is just an alt-Charles who is more willing to help Hungary (and rules Spain as a husband of his wife) and that everything else is the same then an answer to your question is: no impact because the help is not coming. There is an ongoing war (1521- 26). In December of 1523 the French were pushed out of Lombardy after which the Imperial forced invaded Provence. In August - September of 1524 Imperial forces had been besieging Marseille and in mid-October of 1524 Francis I invaded Italy with an army 40,000 strong and Imperial side is extremely busy until the early 1525.

The 1st possible opening is in 1525 after the battle of Pavia and it is an open question if the German contingents would agree to march all the way to Hungary. Anyway, the window of opportunity would be quite limited because in 1526 War of the League of Cognac is going to start.Besides being quite busy, Charles could not pay his troops and pretty much lost control over German and Spanish contingents with a resulting Sack of Rome in 1527. By that time Mohacs is lost day Louis is dead.

Interesting. One butterfly of the timeline (which I'm not sure would make a difference) is that Isabella of Austria is married to a surviving son of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany, which might curb some of the Italian infighting and free up some troops?

If we assume Philip's daughter being the Dauphine of France doesn't stop the Italian squabbling, if another force came in by 1524 (say Poland) could they stem the bleeding and possibly make a move (successful or not) to take back Belgrade?
 
So I'm writing part of my Tudor Timeline (insert shameless plug here) and dealing with the goings on in Central Europe of the 1520s. The rough plan so far is as follows: Louis and Suleiman still go to war over Hungarian tribute to the Ottoman Empire, but here Louis manages to get some Imperial support (Philip the Fair survives, and I imagine him more willing to help his son-in-law then Charles). This leads to a much better showing for Hungary, and while Suleiman manages to get some castles in Serbia, he doesn't get Belgrade and after three years everyone is ready to give up. Except that in 1524 Sigismund the Old wants to join the war (the reason: ITTL Aleksandra Lisowska [OTL's Hurrem Sultan] becomes a minor celebrity (and Sigismund's mistress) with the story that she managed to break free of Ottoman slave traders, and Sigismund wants to beat the Turk and, in his dream of dreams, free the women of the harem).

My questions are as follows:
1) How would Imperial help impact the Hungarian showing in the war? I have it initially leading to a stalemate, but would another outcome be more plausible?
2) Assuming we are at a stalemate in 1524, would the Polish military help push the Imperial-Magyar forces over the top and, if so, what's the most plausible endgame for the Christian forces, assuming we don't get the fever dream of retaking Constantinople?
Interesting. One butterfly of the timeline (which I'm not sure would make a difference) is that Isabella of Austria is married to a surviving son of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany, which might curb some of the Italian infighting and free up some troops?

If we assume Philip's daughter being the Dauphine of France doesn't stop the Italian squabbling, if another force came in by 1524 (say Poland) could they stem the bleeding and possibly make a move (successful or not) to take back Belgrade?

Poland is hardly a decent force to help. They don't have much to gain. Maybe Zapolya joins early. Belgrade is lost as of 1524. Or it is going to be lost more often than once. It is an important centre fod both the Ottomans and Hungarians with former having a superior military over Hungary.
 
Interesting. One butterfly of the timeline (which I'm not sure would make a difference) is that Isabella of Austria is married to a surviving son of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany, which might curb some of the Italian infighting and free up some troops?

If we assume Philip's daughter being the Dauphine of France doesn't stop the Italian squabbling, if another force came in by 1524 (say Poland) could they stem the bleeding and possibly make a move (successful or not) to take back Belgrade?

An idea that some alternative marriage could resolve all the major problems seems slightly too optimistic to me. Louis XII was planning a marriage that would resolve all Italian issues but opposition in France was too strong for this to happen. Francis had as his second wife Austrian Archduchess and she did not play any political role. Louis XIII was married to the sister of the King of Spain and not only did not this prevent a war but the war continued when Anne of Austria was a regent.

As far as the PLC is involved, we have plenty of specialists capable of going into the “who would marry whom and how this would change the world” details. The only thing I can say is that in 1524 Poland was allied with France against the Hapsburgs and alliance hold until after Pavia. So, with Louis being Hapsburg’s protege, why would Poland come to his rescue?
 
An idea that some alternative marriage could resolve all the major problems seems slightly too optimistic to me. Louis XII was planning a marriage that would resolve all Italian issues but opposition in France was too strong for this to happen. Francis had as his second wife Austrian Archduchess and she did not play any political role. Louis XIII was married to the sister of the King of Spain and not only did not this prevent a war but the war continued when Anne of Austria was a regent.

As far as the PLC is involved, we have plenty of specialists capable of going into the “who would marry whom and how this would change the world” details. The only thing I can say is that in 1524 Poland was allied with France against the Hapsburgs and alliance hold until after Pavia. So, with Louis being Hapsburg’s protege, why would Poland come to his rescue?

The reason for this, ITTL, has less to do with any affection towards Louis and more to do with Sigismund's own dreams to smash the Ottomans. One idea for the timeline is that Aleksandra Lisowska (OTL's Hurrem Sultan) becomes a minor celebrity (and object of affection for Sigismund) with a (possibly tall) tale of evading Ottoman slave traders, which gives Sigismund (who wants to play the hero) the idea that he can join with his nephew and save the Christian slaves. An auxiliary consequence is that Sigismund coming to help when Philip stays home causes Louis to move towards his uncle and, when his Habsburg wife dies in childbirth, take Hedwig Jagiellon for a second wife.
 
The reason for this, ITTL, has less to do with any affection towards Louis and more to do with Sigismund's own dreams to smash the Ottomans. One idea for the timeline is that Aleksandra Lisowska (OTL's Hurrem Sultan) becomes a minor celebrity (and object of affection for Sigismund) with a (possibly tall) tale of evading Ottoman slave traders, which gives Sigismund (who wants to play the hero) the idea that he can join with his nephew and save the Christian slaves. An auxiliary consequence is that Sigismund coming to help when Philip stays home causes Louis to move towards his uncle and, when his Habsburg wife dies in childbirth, take Hedwig Jagiellon for a second wife.

The obvious question is what the Polish military system looked like at that time. Love story is nice but not very effective against high quality army.
 
The obvious question is what the Polish military system looked like at that time. Love story is nice but not very effective against high quality army.
I'll be looking into that, I'm not planning it to be a super effective counterstrike (at best maybe holding the Turks to Belgrade to deal with another day) but a bit better than the disaster of OTL
 
I'll be looking into that, I'm not planning it to be a super effective counterstrike (at best maybe holding the Turks to Belgrade to deal with another day) but a bit better than the disaster of OTL

Ambushes may help. Las Navas de Tolosa, Maritsa etc were battle that were fought as an ambush by a smaller force against a bigger force. It does not cripple the Ottomans permanently but a campaign in Hungary will end before it can really take off.
 
Ambushes may help. Las Navas de Tolosa, Maritsa etc were battle that were fought as an ambush by a smaller force against a bigger force. It does not cripple the Ottomans permanently but a campaign in Hungary will end before it can really take off.

Well, an unexpected attack sometimes can produce remarkable results but one can hardly base strategy upon the lucky events. As I understand, by the time in question Poland still had pretty much feudal army with the heavy armored cavalry (no winged hussars, yet, for few decades) being the main force and not too much in the terms of an infantry with the firearms.
 
Just to correct a very important mistake here: Hungary lost Belgrad in 1521 - so saving it in 1524 and such is impossible. As Belgrade was the key to the whole southern defensive system of Hungary its fall was a catastrophe for the Kingdom. The Ottoman army was at one of its peaks and the fall of Belgrade meant that it had to be stopped on the field of battle - as the forts have fallen. The result was Mohács in 1526. And I seriously dont see the Hungary of the Jagiellons with the magnates becoming far too powerful to allow an effectivly run state to somehow produce an army that has at least a chance to defeat the Ottoman army of the 1520's. Very heavy outside help would be needed just to have a chance. And seeing the tendencies that would most likely be nothing more than a delay. Hungary wasnt heading in a good direction even without the Ottomans. I dont say that saving Hungary from an Ottoman conquest was ASB at that point but very many six rolls would be needed for it.
 
1) Sigismund never had any mistresses after he was married. That would require deep personality changes of him.
2) Sigismund advised Louis to not mess with Sultan, but he was losing influence iver his nephew. Pro-Habsburg advisors of Louis had more to say.
3) Sultan secured Polish flank already-he ordered Tatars to invade Poland, "just in case". So Sigismund was busy.
4) Despite this, large portion of Louis II's forces at Mohacs were Poles. That did not help.
 
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An idea that some alternative marriage could resolve all the major problems seems slightly too optimistic to me. Louis XII was planning a marriage that would resolve all Italian issues but opposition in France was too strong for this to happen. Francis had as his second wife Austrian Archduchess and she did not play any political role. Louis XIII was married to the sister of the King of Spain and not only did not this prevent a war but the war continued when Anne of Austria was a regent.

As far as the PLC is involved, we have plenty of specialists capable of going into the “who would marry whom and how this would change the world” details. The only thing I can say is that in 1524 Poland was allied with France against the Hapsburgs and alliance hold until after Pavia. So, with Louis being Hapsburg’s protege, why would Poland come to his rescue?

PLC could not be involved any more in 1524 than UK.
And if we are talking about marriages... Yes, sometimes big hopes are put into them for no reason, but sometimes they're causing massive changes. In the case of Hungary marriage with Beatrice of Naples has given Vladislaus money to pay Black Army in 1490.
And if we want Habsburgs to be more involved in alt-Mohacs that is when it should start. Maximilian Habsburg had chance to get Hungarian crown in 1490, which he lost after sack of Székesféhervár. Not only his image was damaged by sack of Hungarian coronation site and looting done by his army-he wasted time, that supporters of Vladislaus used to prepare defense of Buda. Would Max act faster, he had chance to capture Hungarian capital by surprise. Then it would be Vladislaus who would have his image devasted, as a man who failed to defend capital. Vladislaus' supporters would leave him, seeing his case as lost, and Maximilian would be new King of Hungary.
 
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