Imperial Austrian Federal Empire

In 1916 the new Ausro-Hungarian Emperor begins a diplomatic move that will within a year take Austria out of the War. Emperor Karl has managed to achieve an agreement with the British and French after the disaster collapse of Russia in 1917. The Italians have receive a bloody nose and the western allies feel that a peace with Austria would allow them to remove their troops from Italy to shore up the Western Front.
Emperor Karl has proposed a peace agreement that would see a border adjustment of the empire's borders. In fact the emperor is sick of the road blocks that the Hungarians have been putting in his efforts to fight the war and reform the Empire.
Karl now proposes to cut Hungary loose and create a new Federal empire that will give the Cechs ,Slovenians and Croats more of a say in the empire . the new constitution will give the government the ability to reform and improve the living conditions of the people.
The Border comission is to meet to set the new boundaries between the new empire and Hungary and other territories.
 
In 1916 the new Ausro-Hungarian Emperor begins a diplomatic move that will within a year take Austria out of the War. Emperor Karl has managed to achieve an agreement with the British and French after the disaster collapse of Russia in 1917. The Italians have receive a bloody nose and the western allies feel that a peace with Austria would allow them to remove their troops from Italy to shore up the Western Front.
Emperor Karl has proposed a peace agreement that would see a border adjustment of the empire's borders. In fact the emperor is sick of the road blocks that the Hungarians have been putting in his efforts to fight the war and reform the Empire.
Karl now proposes to cut Hungary loose and create a new Federal empire that will give the Cechs ,Slovenians and Croats more of a say in the empire . the new constitution will give the government the ability to reform and improve the living conditions of the people.
The Border comission is to meet to set the new boundaries between the new empire and Hungary and other territories.

Sorry but the only way I see this happening is in ASB.
 
I'm actually gonna have to say I agree this is ASB. In order for some form of the United States of Greater Austria to exist its basically all or nothing. You can't have Hungary gain independence without encouraging the Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, ect to want it too. I'd say the best you might be able to manage by Karl ascension is a Union between Austria, Slovenia, and possibly Croatia (the Croats were historically very loyal to the House of Habsburg).
 
There is a difference between extremley unlikely and outright impossible. I'm sure all kinds of civil war and rebellions and the like would occur and probably take down good chunks of the empire, but its not out of the real of possibility that maybe Austria and some nearby provinces remain together as a Federal Empire.
 
There is a difference between extremley unlikely and outright impossible. I'm sure all kinds of civil war and rebellions and the like would occur and probably take down good chunks of the empire, but its not out of the real of possibility that maybe Austria and some nearby provinces remain together as a Federal Empire.

Actually it is impossible since every non Austrian ethnic group wanted to get out of the empire. The only reason the Hungarians didn't is because they were given some say in how things would be run. But unfortunately there is absolutely no way for any of this to happen at the point you mentioned. And if all these states are calling their own shots then the Hungarians are gonna see the writing on the wall and split as well. Maybe before the war if Franz survives, MAYBE, but that in and of itself creates a whole new mess of problems.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
In the middle of the war all the ethnic groups were tired to fight for the Empire. if you want a Habsburg Federal State you need a POD before the war, or a POD with a Central Power victory (acctually if the Central Powers had won the Habsburgs had to give something to the czech, galicians, slovenians etc. They would all demand to be awarded for having fought for the Empire).
 
Hi!

In 1916 the new Ausro-Hungarian Emperor begins a diplomatic move that will within a year take Austria out of the War. Emperor Karl has managed to achieve an agreement with the British and French after the disaster collapse of Russia in 1917. The Italians have receive a bloody nose and the western allies feel that a peace with Austria would allow them to remove their troops from Italy to shore up the Western Front.

Fabio:
The Strafexpedition of May 1916 failed, but was a near miss.
quickly transferring troops by train, Italians achieved an important numerical superiority and conquered the City of Gorizia in august 1916.

Austrians neared disaster in 1917, in Carzano, a month before Caporetto.
They avoided losing Trentino and cancelling Caporetto thanks to Italian errors and dumb luck.
(my novel on the episode, Italian only: http://www.lulu.com/content/1125733
English translation due for mid-2009)

The Austrians had a bloody nose: They had to ask German's help to organize the breakthrough at Caporetto, expecially after the Italian breakthrough in the Bainsizza battle, failed because horrendous Italian organization.

Hi!
Fabio
 
In the middle of the war all the ethnic groups were tired to fight for the Empire. if you want a Habsburg Federal State you need a POD before the war, or a POD with a Central Power victory (acctually if the Central Powers had won the Habsburgs had to give something to the czech, galicians, slovenians etc. They would all demand to be awarded for having fought for the Empire).

I'm not so sure; there were may Czechs who were worried about the threat of revolution; sure, Benes was in favor of independence, but other Czech leaders like Kramar opposed it.

Hungary, of course, was nominally a Kingdom until the 1940s, and Austrians would have preferred anything to what happened in 1918.
 
Actually Karl was in favor of reforming the empire and allowing the other ethnic groups to have not only a say in it but to have a stake in it. Unforunatly the Hungarians were unwilling to reform the empire and it might be that there would be a split. However, I do believe that it would be possible to rally elements of the empire to the crown. Not all of the czechs and others wanted independence but if they felt that they were being listen to and that their leaders were part of the government that loyalty might be reinforced. Thus if karl was able to rally the empire's military stablizing the Italian front and achieving a peace agreement with the main western allies he might stand a good chance.
It must be remembered that by the time this is taking place Russia is suffering many problems that will lead to the revolution and the Balkan threat had finally been crushed. It will take leadership and luck as well as a lot of secret diplomatic foot work but it could be accomplished without little green guys from an alternative reality.
 
Let us assume that Emperor Karl was able to achieve a peace agreement with the allies as a result of problems on both the Western front and the collapse of Russia. Karl was able also to win the support of Czech politicans with an offer of a greater say in the empire and an approvement in conditions for the Czech's croatians and Slovenians.
The Imperial army manages to do better in fighting the Italians. With peace will come the problem of rebuilding the country and there will be a problem with the Hungarians who might very well be unwilling to accept rerforms. But if the empire is to survive it must reform itself or it will perish.
I have little doubt that the Italians will be unhappy not to gain territory at the expense of Austria. As the empire redraws it borders it seeks to develope a more reasonable relationship with its neighbors. A question arises arises as to how will the empire deal with the question s of Montenegro, Serbia and Bosnia-Hergovenia. It would appear that the empire would be willing to restore Montenegro andperhaps Serbia. Serbia would have to have made changes as the empire can not have it possibly start anoth war.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Yeah, I'm not sure the Allies would have accepted peace with Austria- Hungary without border revisions. Serbia, Italy and Romania all desreved something, even though they at this point was in a really bad shape (but so was Austria).
 

Hnau

Banned
Austria-Hungary wasn't doomed by 1917. The minorities in the Empire weren't yet ready to make that step of declaring independence, many just wanted out of the war and equal rights. Independence was only taken seriously when it became apparent that A-H wouldn't reform and wouldn't get out of the war. Furthermore, independence of various minorities was fostered by the Allies, given funds and diplomatic recognition and so forth.

Furthermore, Hungary was desperate at the end of the war. The end of the empire meant their territory and power would be vastly reduced. I can see them accepting reforms for greater equality among the nationalities in order to hang on to some of this power.

However, I do agree that it will be difficult, especially with Germany pissed off about their surrender. And, the Austro-Hungarian Empire is going to have to cede some territory away to its neighbours. Transylvania, Serbia, most likely Galicia, Trentino and Istria...
 
I too believe that the empire would have to change its borders. I really see the government as willing to restore Montenegro (this would possibly gain some good will from the British and even from the Italian Royal Family.I also believe that the empire would be willing to get ride of the two provinces that triggered the war in the first place. Serbia would return but perhaps with a different royal family.
The problem with Romania would have to be settled with a redrawing of the border, should Hungary remain with the empire. Thus the Romanians would gain some land but not as much as they were granted in our Time line. The Polish question would have to be delt with. I believe that the Emperor would favor the establishment of a polish state (his couisn liven in the Austrian Polish provinces and had become more polish than Austrian but this would have to involve co-operation from the germans.
Austrian definatly wanted out of the war and it needed to make a lot of changes which would improve the lot of its people and truly weld the new Federal Empire together.
 
Political reforms: The new federal Empire would see a new bicammerial legislature which would allow allof the empire to have more of a say. I could see the upper body being more like the British House of Lords while the lower house would be more of a representive of the people. This would be the first stage.
 
...I believe that the Emperor would favor the establishment of a polish state (his couisn liven in the Austrian Polish provinces and had become more polish than Austrian but this would have to involve co-operation from the germans...

There is no way you are going to get German cooperation if AH bows out unless they get to bow out too with gains for themselves. It was for the most part the German Army which defeated Russia, Romania, Serbia, and then came to their [AH's] rescue in Italy. Such a base betrayal by AH would be so great that there would likely be a new word created for it. No doubt the Entente would demand that Austria cease any munitions, foodstuffs, war goods, etc. to Germany in exchange for peace too.

If you're looking to hand Germany a real stab in the back myth that is one right there.
 
It need to be pointed out that Austria tried to convince the Kaiser that peace needed to be made as Austria had reached its limits. The turning point had been reached when Emperor Karl assumed the throne and thing just seemed to go down hill. The problem was that Hindenburg and Ludendorf had convince the Kaiser that they could win the war ( it need to be again pointed out that the Kaiser had his doubts and was prepared to reach a peace settlement with the allies.
For Austria to continue to fight the war when its economy was in ruins, its military was in a terrible state leaves the question as to whom did Karl have the greater obligation to his people or to Germany.
 
Military reforms. If the empire is to survive there would need to be reforms to the Imperial Military. Better training and education for the military is a key to achieving this. A major problem of the old Imperial Army was the fact that the language problem often cropped up and made operational and tactical problems for the military. Another problem that would have to be dealt with was the removal of officers that were incapable of doing the job. To this end the government would have to create a better natioanl military academy to train the future officers of the army.
The Imperial Army would also have to modernize and that would probably mean that by the late 1920 a lot of the weapons for the army would come out of Czech factories. This would probably mean the adoption of the Czech designed LMG and the adoption of the T-35 and T-38 tanks as well as the more powerful Czech designed 47mm ATG.
 
The Empire has managed to weather the storms of the ending of the First World War. Emperor Karl had been able to exit the war in a timely manner before the empire was wrecked beyond repair.
With skillful diplomacy he was able to play the allies against one another and come out ahead. One thing that he was able to do was impress upon the Kaiser that the war needed to be brought to an end.
The result was that there were also talks held between Germany and the western allies regarding a possible peace settlement. The Kaiser fired Hindenburg and Ludendorff and asked the Crown Prince of Bavaria to take the post as chief of the Imperial Gerneral Staff.
 
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