Impacts of a “United Kingdom of the Spanish and French”

Assume for whatever reason the French and Spanish join up. What would have to happen for this to be plausible? I ask because I like to make scenarios for myself in EU4/Vicky2 and I like them to be plausible. Would the union be Spanish led or French? How would this impact colonization? Would it last, or would it crumble upon the death of the unifying leader?
 
Like a different War of the Spanish Succession allowing for the possibility? Or an earlier time? Maybe Juana is married to a French prince instead of a Habsburg.
 
The POD is easy, France wins the war of Spanish Succession. The hard part is that besides the French nobody in Europe wanted this exact scenario to happen. Britain, the HRE, the Dutch, and the Hapsburg Spanish all teamed up to prevent exactly what you're trying to do. Even Portugal eventually piled in to defend Spain from France.

As for the impact it would be absolutely huge. Sprance would be an absolute monster and the major power in Europe. Any coalition that formed would be France-Spain vs Everybody Else. Britain almost certainly works much more closely with the HRE and the Dutch moving forward. Portugal will quickly come to regret their support for the French when they realize they jumped out of the pan and into the fire.

Because of the balance of power this almost certainly turns all of Europe into perpetual rivals to this new French/Spanish kingdom. To show you the level of animosity toward this union here's the wording from the Peace of Utrecht:"because of the great danger which threatened the liberty and safety of all Europe, from the too close conjunction of the kingdoms of Spain and France, [...] one and the same person should never become King of both kingdoms."

You could do a much earlier POD but based on your question I don't think that's what you're looking for.
 
Assume for whatever reason the French and Spanish join up. What would have to happen for this to be plausible? I ask because I like to make scenarios for myself in EU4/Vicky2 and I like them to be plausible. Would the union be Spanish led or French?

I'm not sure how it would happen, but if it did, it would led by France, which has always had a much larger population than Spain. You would need a very early POD, I think - like France never losing the county of Barcelona and fighting the Reconquista by itself.

The POD is easy, France wins the war of Spanish Succession. The hard part is that besides the French nobody in Europe wanted this exact scenario to happen. Britain, the HRE, the Dutch, and the Hapsburg Spanish all teamed up to prevent exactly what you're trying to do. Even Portugal eventually piled in to defend Spain from France.
.

France won the war OTL. Louis XIV’s objective was to put his younger grandson on the Spanish throne, while his older grandson was going to inherit France. The goal was not to unite them under the same person.

Louis stated that Philippe d’Anjou did not forfeit his rights to France but he did not mean from this that the two kingdoms should unite, just that he could stay in the French succession. But this was ambiguous sounding and frightened the rest of the Europe, thus the clause in the treaty of Utrecht. (That clause never mattered in the end, as the young Louis XV grew up into a healthy adult and had children.)
 
Last edited:
Earlier PODs could work just as well, I just prefer ones between 1300-1600.
I like the idea of everyone perpetually hating Sprance though
 
Like a different War of the Spanish Succession allowing for the possibility? Or an earlier time? Maybe Juana is married to a French prince instead of a Habsburg.
Better an earlier one in which either Juana (the Beltraneja is more likely than Juana of Castile and Aragon) is married to a French prince and then inhereit both countries.
(Or maybe Maximilian I of Austria has a son by Bianca Maria Sforza who marry Anne of Bohemia and Hungary, Charles and Ferdinand die both childless and Eleanor of Austria had already married either Louis XII or Francis I of France)
 
Have Ferdinand of Aragon die en route to his wedding and Isabella of Castile is forced to marry the Duc of Berry. A few decades down the line, when the House of Valois dies out with Charles VIII (or his AH equivalent), his descendants are next in line to inherit France.
 
I like the name the Bourbon Empire or Bourbon Realm. If anybody has any issue with a nation named after a dynasty, take it up with the Turks.

The Bourbon Realm would probably be divided into an Ausgleich-like arrangement, as an absolutist centralized rule of a country that large would be impossible. If we are excluding Italy, then I think we'd see the Bourbon Realm divided into France, Navarre, Castille, and Aragon. If we include Italy, then Sicily and Naples would be two additional crowns. Maybe the Spanish Netherlands are made part of France, maybe they remain Spanish.


If the Spanish Military is reorganized along French lines and integrated with that of France, that's a behemoth. Looking at Wikipedia for populations in 1700...

France - 21.5 million
Spain - 7 million
Spanish Netherlands - 3.1 million
Naples - 2.5 million
Sicily - 0.7 million

Bourbons in Europe Total - 34.8 million
I couldn't find info for Sardinia, Milan, or Parma and assume Presidi is included with Naples. If those are separate, then the number is higher.

In contrast...
Britain and Ireland - 8.7 million
Russia - 14 million
Poland - 9 million
Austria - 8.4 million
Portugal - 2.3 million
Holy Roman Empire - 15 million
Dutch Republic - 1.8 million
Prussia - 1.5 million
Denmark and Norway - 1.3 million
Swiss - 1.3 million
Sweden - 2.5 million

Ottomans - 24.8 million.


The Bourbons and Ottomans nearly equal the rest of Europe combined. Oomph.
 
Last edited:
France won the war OTL. Louis XIV’s objective was to put his younger grandson on the Spanish throne, while his older grandson was going to inherit France. The goal was not to unite them under the same person.

Louis stated that Philippe d’Anjou did not forfeit his rights to France but he did not mean from this that the two kingdoms should unite, just that he could stay in the French succession. But this was ambiguous sounding and frightened the rest of the Europe, thus the clause in the treaty of Utrecht. (That clause never mattered in the end, as the young Louis XV grew up into a healthy adult and had children.)
How likely is the scenario that Philippe d'Anjou retains his rights to the French throne and Louis XV passes away without any surviving children? Would this mean a personal Union between both countries?
 
I like the name the Bourbon Empire or Bourbon Realm. If anybody has any issue with a nation named after a dynasty, take it up with the Turks.

The Bourbon Realm would probably be divided into an Ausgleich-like arrangement, as an absolutist centralized rule of a country that large would be impossible. If we are excluding Italy, then I think we'd see the Bourbon Realm divided into France, Navarre, Castille, and Aragon. If we include Italy, then Sicily and Naples would be two additional crowns. Maybe the Spanish Netherlands are made part of France, maybe they remain Spanish.


If the Spanish Military is reorganized along French lines and integrated with that of France, that's a behemoth. Looking at Wikipedia for populations in 1700...

France - 21.5 million
Spain - 7 million
Spanish Netherlands - 3.1 million
Naples - 2.5 million
Sicily - 0.7 million

Bourbons in Europe Total - 34.8 million
I couldn't find info for Sardinia, Milan, or Parma and assume Presidi is included with Naples. If those are separate, then the number is higher.

In contrast...
Britain and Ireland - 8.7 million
Russia - 14 million
Poland - 9 million
Austria - 8.4 million
Portugal - 2.3 million
Holy Roman Empire - 15 million
Dutch Republic - 1.8 million
Prussia - 1.5 million
Denmark and Norway - 1.3 million
Swiss - 1.3 million
Sweden - 2.5 million

Ottomans - 24.8 million.


The Bourbons and Ottomans nearly equal the rest of Europe combined. Oomph.

i'm amazed how small the population of the Ottomans is.
 
Have Ferdinand of Aragon die en route to his wedding and Isabella of Castile is forced to marry the Duc of Berry. A few decades down the line, when the House of Valois dies out with Charles VIII (or his AH equivalent), his descendants are next in line to inherit France.
That will not work as the descendants of Juana (la Beltraneja) will rule Castile instead of the line of Isabella...

How likely is the scenario that Philippe d'Anjou retains his rights to the French throne and Louis XV passes away without any surviving children? Would this mean a personal Union between both countries?
No way in the hell he will be allowed to keep both crowns...
 
That will not work as the descendants of Juana (la Beltraneja) will rule Castile instead of the line of Isabella...

Henry and Isabella signed a pact, that she would be his heir if she married a groom of his choice. The Duke of Berry was one of these proposed grooms. And even if La Beltraneja tries to take the throne, Isabella will have the support of the majority of the lords of Castile and be backed by France.
 
Henry and Isabella signed a pact, that she would be his heir if she married a groom of his choice. The Duke of Berry was one of these proposed grooms. And even if La Beltraneja tries to take the throne, Isabella will have the support of the majority of the lords of Castile and be backed by France.
Well that only if Henry had intention to maintain that promise and he has no intention to doing that: Henry’s intention was always to have his daughter Joanna as heiress not either of his half-sibling: Alfonso was accepted as heir under condition to marry Joanna and all the grooms Henry proposed by Henry to Isabella were intended for remove her from Castile and its affairs for for securing Joanna’s succession
 
How likely is the scenario that Philippe d'Anjou retains his rights to the French throne and Louis XV passes away without any surviving children? Would this mean a personal Union between both countries?

The assumption was that he would abdicate the Spanish throne and then take the French one. It was understood that to claim both countries would provoke war.
 
Well that only if Henry had intention to maintain that promise and he has no intention to doing that: Henry’s intention was always to have his daughter Joanna as heiress not either of his half-sibling: Alfonso was accepted as heir under condition to marry Joanna and all the grooms Henry proposed by Henry to Isabella were intended for remove her from Castile and its affairs for for securing Joanna’s succession

She would still most likely win the war against Joanna, on the ground that she was supposedly a bastard and she has the support of the nobility. Besides, she can always set up an "unfortunate hunting accident" for her niece.
 
She would still most likely win the war against Joanna, on the ground that she was supposedly a bastard and she has the support of the nobility. Besides, she can always set up an "unfortunate hunting accident" for her niece.
Isabella can not do anything if she is out of the country and/or not supported by her new country (like a wedding with Alfonso V of Portugal, specially if Juana marry her cousin Jõao or a wedding to Berry if her brother-in-law the King of France decide to recognize Juana as heiress of her father)...
Isabella was able to keep the support of the nobility because she remained in Castile, fought against Enrique for her rights and married Ferdinand... Had she acted differently Juana would have been likely recognized as heiress of Castile and married as such to a suitable consort
 
Top