Impact of Me-109F1 being ready for the Battle of Britain

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Deleted member 1487

IOTL Messerschmitt had to do some significant clean up of the aerodynamics of the standard issue Me-109E starting in 1939 and by November 1941 managed to issue the first of what has been called the 'best of the breed', the F-series of Me-109s that were the most aerodynamically fit version of the aircraft. This resulted in major boosts in speed, fuel consumption, and manuverability, at least some 15-20% over the previous serious. Part of this was due to the DB601E engine, but much of it was due to the cleaned up airframe and replacing the wing cannons with a single motor cannon firing through the engine itself. The first of the series didn't use the DB601E though, that wasn't ready until 1941, the Me109F1 of October 1940 used the older DB601N engines of the late Me109E marks. What if Messerschmitt got it's act together earlier and managed to produce the aerodynamically clean Me-109F1 in time for July 1940 to participate in the Battle of Britain? Let's say for the sake of argument that in July 1940 they have 1 Wing of Me-109s of the F-series with the older engine and cannon, so it doesn't have the full performance of the definitive Me-109F4 of 1941, but is still significantly better performing than the historical E-series of 1940 by 10% (range, speed, maneuverability). Furthermore let's say that they can reequip 1 full Wing per month of the battle and keep up with losses of the existing wings. What impact would that have had on the Battle of Britain? The version would effectively be significantly ahead of the Spitfire in performance (except for turning radius).

http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/camouflage/images/Art-Messerschmitt-Bf-109F-mark-variants-01.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_variants#Bf_109F
With the early tail unit problems out of the way, pilots generally agreed that the F series was the best-handling of all the Bf 109 series.[45] Mölders flew one of the first operational Bf 109 F-1s over England from early October 1940; he may well have been credited with shooting down eight Hurricanes and four Spitfires while flying W.No 5628, Stammkennzeichen SG+GW between 11 and 29 October 1940.[46][47]

As the DB 601 E was not yet available in numbers, the pre-production F-0 (the only F variant to have a rectangular supercharger intake) and the first production series F-1/F-2 received the 1,175 PS (1,159 hp, 864 kW) DB 601N engine driving a VDM 9-11207 propeller.[36] The F-0/F-1 and F-2 only differed in their armament; the F-1 being fitted with one 20 mm MG FF/M Motorkanone firing through the engine hub, with 60 rounds. The F-1 first saw action in the Battle of Britain in October 1940 with JG 51.[48] The most experienced fighter aces, like Werner Mölders, were the first ones to fly the first Bf 109 F-1s in combat in October 1940.[46]
 
The Emils had those wing guns that the F did not
Worth the tradeoff for slightly better maneuverability and having half the firepower of a Spitfire Vb?
 

Deleted member 1487

The 400mph Spitfire MkIII goes into production and the balance is re established.
When was the MkIII Spitfire ready for service? Wikipedia says that they went for the Hurricane Mk II instead and it entered service in September 1940. The Mk II Spitfire wasn't really in service before 1941, so could the Mk III show up any sooner if the first time the improved Me109F shows up in July for the first time? It seems by then the RAF had committed to the Hurricane II and production resources were allocated.

The Emils had those wing guns that the F did not
Worth the tradeoff for slightly better maneuverability and having half the firepower of a Spitfire Vb?
The armament of the Me109F was all center line mounted so aiming was a lot easier as you didn't need to worry about convergence. Then too the ability to actually get position on your target or disengage in unfavorable circumstance was heightened so that counted for a lot. A couple hits with the 20mm MG FF/M was plenty to kill a fighter, though they were limited to 60 rounds. Spitfire Mk. Is had a harder time with their 8 MGs then the Me109 did with it's 20mm minengeschoss.
 
When was the MkIII Spitfire ready for service? Wikipedia says that they went for the Hurricane Mk II instead and it entered service in September 1940. The Mk II Spitfire wasn't really in service before 1941, so could the Mk III show up any sooner if the first time the improved Me109F shows up in July for the first time? It seems by then the RAF had committed to the Hurricane II and production resources were allocated.

The only MkIII built N3297 was first flown on 16th March 1940 an initial production batch was supposed to start at Southampton in June or July 1940 but the order was put back due to the work needed to convert in service Spitfires to the latest production standard and the transfer of experienced staff to Castle Bromwich to help get the MkII production line moving. In Late July early August 1940 Rolls Royce told the Air Ministry it couldnt make the Merlin XX in the numbers required and production was allocated to Bomber Command for the Wellington and Whitley. Experience of combat in August showed the Hurricane needed the Merlin XX if it was to keep up with the latest 109E versions. In October 1940 Rolls Royce had built up production of the XX and an order was placed for 1,000 MkIII Spits to start as soon as possible but almost straight away Rolls Royce produced the Merlin 45 which was a Merlin XX without the difficult to manufacture 2 speed Supercharger drive. This engine which was slightly shorter than the 2 speed XX, could be fitted to a MkI airframe with only new engine longerons required and the order for the MkIII was cancelled and changed to the MkI with Merlin 45 which became the Spitfire MkV.

I dont know how quickly MkIII production could have been built up and how long acceptance trials would have taken but I think September could have been possible if the need had been there. In 1942 Rolls Royce and Supermarine got a Spitfire MkIX prototype AB505 (Actually a converted MKV) flying in April and into service with 64 Sqdn in late June 42 so I think 5 months is doable though early production of the MkIII would have probably have been hand built pre production versions for the first month or so. It took about 8 months from first production for the MkII to replace the MkI in front line service.

The MkIII design did eventually get into service but it had a Merlin 60 series engine, a different wing plan and was called the MkVIII.
 
However, even if the Bf 109F-1 had been available widely by July 1940, it still didn't address a major issue: the lack of range. Would the availability of the Bf 109E-7 with its 300 liter drop tank (or at least made available to install on the widely used Bf 109E-3/E-4 models as Rüstsätze field upgrade kits) have possibly tipped the Battle of Britain in favor of the Germans, since the Bf 109E could now operate for longer periods over the UK?
 

Deleted member 1487

Well the Mk. V wasn't available until 1941, so its not looking like the Brits can rush a Spit III without leaving the Hurricanes in the lurch and having only a tiny number of high performance Spits probably no earlier than mid/late September given that once the need for them is identified in July it will take time to make the production changes to get them to the front line. So by the time it is available in any numbers the BoB would be pretty much over.

However, even if the Bf 109F-1 had been available widely by July 1940, it still didn't address a major issue: the lack of range. Would the availability of the Bf 109E-7 with its 300 liter drop tank (or at least made available to install on the widely used Bf 109E-3/E-4 models as Rüstsätze field upgrade kits) have possibly tipped the Battle of Britain in favor of the Germans, since the Bf 109E could now operate for longer periods over the UK?
Range really wasn't that big of an issue if the goal was to achieve air superiority over 11 Group's combat area. That is where all the fighting took place anyway. Stephen Bungay in "Most Dangerous Enemy" makes the point that the Messerschmitt's range was a red herring excuse to explain the defeat of the Luftwaffe. The streamlined F-series did improve range by cutting down on drag and improving speed, so the improvements would result in about 15 minutes of additional operations (the DB601E engine that was available in 1941 would have increased that base range even further due to being fuel efficient than the 601N), which is what Bungay says is roughly the amount needed to keep the Me109 in the fight enough to make a difference to air combat so the Germans wouldn't have to break off advantageous fights as quickly. Anything beyond that isn't really that necessary because the operations area was mostly south of London in the critical period of July-September, i.e. well within the range of the shorter legged E-series.

The F-series then gives the somewhat increase range and manuverability to make a difference in combats, but the reduced weapons load, despite being better laid out to improve accuracy, especially for the less skilled/experienced pilots might be more of a factor, as the 1 cannon instead of 2 in the E-series means there is only 60 rounds in the F-series instead of the 120 in the E-series. Perhaps the improved accuracy means that wouldn't matter? But the ammo load would mean that running out of ammo would probably become a factor before fuel load would in the F-series.
 
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If we are comparing armament, a single 20 mm can one does more damage than a dozen MGs firing "bird shot" especially when trying to shoot down all-metal armoured airplane's during the Battle of Britain.
In comparison, when did cannon-armed Hurricanes and Spitfires join the battle?
 
I'm not so sure that Stephen Bungay's opinion of a red herring is significant, nor am I sure that the range of the 109F was significantly superior. It would be interesting if the F was in significant production when tails fell off. I've read that wings also failed, requiring stronger spars and thicker skins. The motor-cannon MG151/20 would have been a significant improvement.
 

Deleted member 1487

I'm not so sure that Stephen Bungay's opinion of a red herring is significant, nor am I sure that the range of the 109F was significantly superior. It would be interesting if the F was in significant production when tails fell off. I've read that wings also failed, requiring stronger spars and thicker skins. The motor-cannon MG151/20 would have been a significant improvement.
The trails version had those problems but beyond the first few F1 had those issues fixed. For the sake of argument those issues have been worked out by the time the first Wing has been outfitted.

The range issue wasn't really that big of a deal for the areas where they were operating; it was a problem when operating near their full range, which was around London or if they got into a bunch of dog fights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_variants#Bf_109F
Thanks to the improved aerodynamics, more fuel-efficient engines and the introduction of light-alloy versions of the standard Luftwaffe 300 litre drop tank, the Bf 109 F offered a much increased maximum range of 1,700 km (1,060 mi)[37]
 
Range really wasn't that big of an issue if the goal was to achieve air superiority over 11 Group's combat area. That is where all the fighting took place anyway.

Not going to happen if 12 Group is still involved, and indeed 12 Group Squadrons as well as forming the basis for Bader's "Big Wing" would provide cover for 11 Group airfields while those squadrons were elsewhere. If 11 Group airfields became untenable withdrawal to 12 and 10 Group airfields was an option.

The fighting was not exclusive to 11 Group by any means either, e.g. Black Thursday.
 
In comparison, when did cannon-armed Hurricanes and Spitfires join the battle?

Not sure about Hurricanes, but at least one cannon armed Spitfire squadron fought in the battle, more on a trial basis than anything The cannon installation however was prone to stoppages and not considered reliable, so didn't become widespread until 1941 when all the bugs had been fixed.
 

Deleted member 1487

Not going to happen if 12 Group is still involved, and indeed 12 Group Squadrons as well as forming the basis for Bader's "Big Wing" would provide cover for 11 Group airfields while those squadrons were elsewhere. If 11 Group airfields became untenable withdrawal to 12 and 10 Group airfields was an option.

The fighting was not exclusive to 11 Group by any means either, e.g. Black Thursday.
Given that Big Wings never really accomplished much and work between the Groups was abysmal that won't really matter that much. If 11 Group withdraws out of it's area then they've lost the landing zone and radar coverage. Note though I didn't say that fighting was purely confined to 11 Group, but the area that Germany needed to dominate was within 11 Group's zone for which the Bf109's range historically could cover well enough. The problem was the lack of fighters and the lack of margin of advantage over their opponents.

Not sure about Hurricanes, but at least one cannon armed Spitfire squadron fought in the battle, more on a trial basis than anything The cannon installation however was prone to stoppages and not considered reliable, so didn't become widespread until 1941 when all the bugs had been fixed.
They did, but they jammed and pilots dumped them for MG armed ones:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super..._Merlin-powered_variants)#Mk_I_.28Type_300.29
With the early cannon installation, jamming was a serious problem. In one engagement, only two of the 12 aircraft had been able to fire off all of their ammunition.
The problem wasn't fixed until October IIRC.
 
If 11 Group withdraws out of it's area then they've lost the landing zone and radar coverage.

That doesn't equate to air superiority though, it just reduces the raid warning time.

Note though I didn't say that fighting was purely confined to 11 Group, but the area that Germany needed to dominate was within 11 Group's zone for which the Bf109's range historically could cover well enough.

And given that 10 and 12 Group squadrons were routinely operating in 11 Group anyway, the notion of local air superiority is vague at best. Domination of 11 Group airspace on it's own isn't achievable in my view with the adjacent groups not also subdued.[/QUOTE]
 

Deleted member 1487

That doesn't equate to air superiority though, it just reduces the raid warning time.
By the time raids are observable from land it is too late for most 11 Group airfields, without which air cover cannot really be provided to the RN contesting an invasion.

And given that 10 and 12 Group squadrons were routinely operating in 11 Group anyway, the notion of local air superiority is vague at best. Domination of 11 Group airspace on it's own isn't achievable in my view with the adjacent groups not also subdued.
Its not just the air space, but pushing RAF fighters outside of a reasonable range of the landing sites to challenge the invasion and provide air cover to the RN and BC trying to stop it.
 
In the wiki article cited, Wilhelm Balthasar
The trails version had those problems but beyond the first few F1 had those issues fixed. For the sake of argument those issues have been worked out by the time the first Wing has been outfitted.

The range issue wasn't really that big of a deal for the areas where they were operating; it was a problem when operating near their full range, which was around London or if they got into a bunch of dog fights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_variants#Bf_109F

crashed on July 3, 1941 when the wings of his 109F-4 broke away. That doesn't sound like an early trials model at all.
 
Probably not that much.... The Luftwaffe would come out victorious in any dogfight between fighter planes, but:

Any German pilot that DOES get his plane shot up will spend the remainder of the war as a POW, while any British pilot that has to bail out will be back.with his squadron the next day. With better planes it might take a little longer before Germany will experience.the lack of seaslned pilots, but if the Battle.of.Britain will go on long enough, it will.

The Luftwaffe's bombers would still get shot down in ever-increasing numbers as the British learn the best ways to attack them. Remember: their network of spotters, radar posts and code breakers will not be affected by the German fighters being 2 years ahead ot their own ones.

The bombing campaign will still fail to break the British morale. The new fighters will do nothing to the supply ships coming in from America. For that you need superior u-boats, not Messerschmits.

Finally, Herman Goering will still find a way to deploy even the most advanced fighters in such a way that negates all their superior characteristics.
 

Don Quijote

Banned
The British fighters, particularly the Hurricane and Defiant, will suffer a bit more heavily, but the British will just press on more quickly with the Spitfire Mk.II. It's not a match for the 109F, but it has enough speed to hold its own, especially if the 109s are tied to the bombers anyway, losing their speed advantage. Someone said about the 109F's firepower being better than the Spitfire/Hurricane's due to a single cannon and 2 MGS being better than 8 MGs. But it's a lot easier to gain hits with large numbers of faster firing weapons, especially when it comes to fighter vs fighter combat.
 

Deleted member 1487

In the wiki article cited, Wilhelm Balthasar


crashed on July 3, 1941 when the wings of his 109F-4 broke away. That doesn't sound like an early trials model at all.
That was one of the very first production F1s, not and F4.

An unexpected structural flaw of the wing and tail section was revealed when the first F-1s were rushed into service; some aircraft crashed or nearly crashed, with either the wing surface wrinkling or fracturing, or by the tail structure failing. In one such accident, the commander of JG 2 "Richthofen", Wilhelm Balthasar, lost his life when he was attacked by a Spitfire during a test flight. While making an evasive manoeuvre, the wings broke away and Balthasar was killed when his aircraft hit the ground. Slightly thicker wing skins and reinforced spars dealt with the wing problems. Tests were also carried out to find out why the tails had failed, and it was found that at certain engine settings a high-frequency oscillation in the tailplane spar was overlapped by harmonic vibrations from the engine; the combined effect being enough to cause structural failure at the rear fuselage/fin attachment point. Initially, two external stiffening plates were screwed onto the outer fuselage on each side, and later the entire structure was reinforced.[35]

For the sake of argument let's say that the structural issues aren't fully worked out yet so this might be an issue during the fighting.

The British fighters, particularly the Hurricane and Defiant, will suffer a bit more heavily, but the British will just press on more quickly with the Spitfire Mk.II. It's not a match for the 109F, but it has enough speed to hold its own, especially if the 109s are tied to the bombers anyway, losing their speed advantage. Someone said about the 109F's firepower being better than the Spitfire/Hurricane's due to a single cannon and 2 MGS being better than 8 MGs. But it's a lot easier to gain hits with large numbers of faster firing weapons, especially when it comes to fighter vs fighter combat.
The Spit IIs were rushed IOTL and they weren't really in mass service until after the BoB was over.
 
While I cannot find any source that describes Balthasar's aircraft as an F1, there are many that give the W.Nr.7066 as being an F4.

The Spit Mk.II was the spawn of the Castle Bromwich shadow factory, which explains the delay. Production was:
June-1940-10
July- 23
August- 37
Sept.- 56

As an interesting historical conundrum, some sources say they are faster than the Mk.I, some slower. My grasp suggests that they were slightly slower, but with much greater rate of climb. Opinions vary.Don't they just.
That was one of the very first production F1s, not and F4.



For the sake of argument let's say that the structural issues aren't fully worked out yet so this might be an issue during the fighting.


The Spit IIs were rushed IOTL and they weren't really in mass service until after the BoB was over.
 
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