Impact of German nuke

[Ultima770]

Let's say in 1945 we drop an atomic bomb on Germany rather than Japan, forcing Germany to surrender.

How would this impact German culture? The stigma of nuclear weapons is something Japan takes seriously and still impacts them to this day. With movies, Godzilla and amongst other things.

I'm not saying they would go as far to make monster movies to be a metaphor of nuclear weapons. Rather, how would this affect their culture and political outlook on the world, if any?

 

[thatsbunkers]

You are gonna have to make the germans a fair amount more successful against the Soviets. The allies would never drop a nuke if the Soviets were near Berlin

 

[FillyofDelphi]

You are gonna have to make the germans a fair amount more successful against the Soviets. The allies would never drop a nuke if the Soviets were near Berlin

It dosen't have to be on Berlin, any more than Tokyo being the target in Japan. A war-industry center in the Ruhr is certainly a more politically-acceptable target.

 

[The Byronic Hero]

After the myriad firebombings? What was really left to hit? Hitler was fantaical enough to keep demanding the Reich fight on. I believe it wouldn't have made that much of a difference.

 

[iVC]

I'm afraid that nuclear blast over the Dortmund, Frankfurt or Stuttgart (if we do take as granted that Allies wouldn't nuke Berlin) would seriously hamper the post-war relations between the WAllies and the future FRG.

Maybe no nuclear weapon on the FRG soil during the Cold War.

 

[iVC]

Slightly offtopic.

With movies, Godzilla and amongst other things.

Afaik, Godzilla is not about the nuclear weapons, it's kind of a Monster Tales about kaiju, the forces of nature.

Godzilla is to be better compared with meteorite impact, tsunami or earthquake, with something unstoppable by men and deific by origin. Worshiping the irresistible force of nature is the part of japanese culture.

 

[Catsmate]

You are gonna have to make the germans a fair amount more successful against the Soviets. The allies would never drop a nuke if the Soviets were near Berlin

Well now if relations were strained, say FDR died earlier and the US found out about Soviet MP espionage, Truman might want to make a point...

 

[FieldMarshal]

Afaik, Godzilla is not about the nuclear weapons, it's kind of a Monster Tales about kaiju, the forces of nature.

Godzilla is to be better compared with meteorite impact, tsunami or earthquake, with something unstoppable by men and deific by origin. Worshiping the irresistible force of nature is the part of japanese culture.

It’s pretty well documented that the original Godzilla (1954) was heavily influenced by events such as the firebombing of Tokyo, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Lucky Dragon incident. Godzilla has definitely evolved as a symbol over time, but he (as well as the Oxygen Destroyer, the weapon that finally slays him in the original film) was definitely originally intended as a nuclear allegory.

 

[Dorknought]

After the myriad firebombings? What was really left to hit? Hitler was fantaical enough to keep demanding the Reich fight on. I believe it wouldn't have made that much of a difference.

 

[Dorknought]

...and amongst other things.

I don't think you can blame nuclear waepons for everything.

 

[Mightyboosh5]

Seems like oversinplified propaganda for Germany but ok

 

[FieldMarshal]

I don't think you can blame nuclear waepons for everything.

I’m not Japanese myself or an expert on Japanese culture or even a weeb, but IIRC you sort of can.

I mean, there’s always been some “weirdness” in Japanese culture from western eyes, but Japan getting utterly thrashed in WW2 like it did and the subsequent American occupation and democratization evidently had severe effects on Japanese culture, in nearly every aspect.

It’s definitely had it’s effects on Germany, too. I’m an American so I can’t speak with much authority, but the modern German doesn’t seem particularly proud of his nation.

 

[The Byronic Hero]

I’m not Japanese myself or an expert on Japanese culture or even a weeb, but IIRC you sort of can.

I mean, there’s always been some “weirdness” in Japanese culture from western eyes, but Japan getting utterly thrashed in WW2 like it did and the subsequent American occupation and democratization evidently had severe effects on Japanese culture, in nearly every aspect.

It’s definitely had it’s effects on Germany, too. I’m an American so I can’t speak with much authority, but the modern German doesn’t seem particularly proud of his nation.

That's due to the shame of Nazism and the Holocaust. Germans are pathologically afraid of national pride because of how tied it was to the Nazis as well as the losses of WWI under the Kaiser. It's one of the main reasons they support the EU.

 

[mcdo]

I’m not Japanese myself or an expert on Japanese culture or even a weeb, but IIRC you sort of can.

I mean, there’s always been some “weirdness” in Japanese culture from western eyes, but Japan getting utterly thrashed in WW2 like it did and the subsequent American occupation and democratization evidently had severe effects on Japanese culture, in nearly every aspect.

It’s definitely had it’s effects on Germany, too. I’m an American so I can’t speak with much authority, but the modern German doesn’t seem particularly proud of his nation.

While I don't doubt that the US occupation carried with it a lot of cultural influence, I have long held that the "Japan/Japanese people/Japanese culture is so weird!" même comes down to two main things. One, Japan was the first non-Western culture to become wealthy in modern times. Being a rich nation meant that their pop culture was seen more widely in other parts of the world, at a time when "Western" pop culture was the norm. Two, people in English-speaking countries didn't, and still don't, in the main, have much familiarity with Japanese culture. When you don't have a good baseline, it is easier to assume anything you do experience is, in fact, a representative example. So, if a person from the US sees a strange French movie, that person would think "Wow, this movie/director is weird!" However, if that same person saw a weird Japanese movie, they instead think "Wow, all of Japanese culture is weird!" I think the same thing would happen if/when the pop culture of other non-Western nations becomes equally widespread, though.

 

[Ivoshafen]

Seems like oversinplified propaganda for Germany but ok

Buddy, no one here is making propaganda for a long gone conflict. Dresden and London both suffered heavily, it’s a Polandball comic, it’s a joke.

 

[Mightyboosh5]

Idk man the “Dresden was annihilated by heartless brits” is fairly propagandaey. I just didn’t see the relevance for this discussion. I wasn’t calling anyone who thought it was funny a propagandist

 

[Ultima770]

So it's possible that Germany would have protested against nukes deployed on their soil. Would the Green Party have more popularity because of this and would the military have had as much funding?

 

[M79]

Drop site would help determine impact. Der Reiss? Peenemunde? Fulda Gap?

 

[Lautréamont]

So it's possible that Germany would have protested against nukes deployed on their soil. Would the Green Party have more popularity because of this and would the military have had as much funding?

Let's not put the cart before the horses here. Before we address the Greens' founding in 1980, we need to address the 1957 elections and the Kampf dem Atomtod movement.

What happened IOTL is that Adenauer and Strauß, who were strongly pro-nukes, ran a double strategy. On the one hand, they publicly supported US nuke deployment on FRG soil. On the other hand, they made secret plans for a joint nuclear program with France and Italy. While the latter plans remained secret until after they had fallen apart with de Gaulle's 1958 coup, Adenauer's and Strauß's support of deployment of US nukes became public knowledge in early 1957. In April 1957, Adenauer famously downplayed tactical nukes as "advanced artillery".
CDU/CSU won a majority in the 1957 elections; the economy was doing great and while the West German people wasn't exactly happy about German nukes, the opposition's attempts to exploit the discontent failed. Actually, the 1957 elections were the only time a list won a majority in the FRG.
The opposition parties, SPD and the newly left-leaning FDP, being out of parliamentary options, joined forces with labour unions and liberal clergy members to create Kampf dem Atomtod, an extra-parliamentary movement dedicated to stopping deployment of nukes on German soil. The movement had huge support, with the vast majority of FRG citizens opposing nuke deployment on German soil and 1,5 million Germans joining the KdA protests in early 1958.

Kampf dem Atomtod ultimately failed because they could not agree on tactics. SPD and labor unions tried to organize a plebiscite, which was forbidden by the Verfassungsgericht as the FRG constitution doesn't have a framework for referenda. More left-leaning KdA members favoured a general strike strategy, which was opposed by SPD and DGB and therefore did not come to pass (but might have succeeded despite its illegality, as polling showed a narrow majority of West Germans in support of a strike strategy).

ITTL, this may go into different directions. Adenauer may lose in 1957, or win a plurality and have to give up nukes. Gesamtdeutsche Volkspartei, Heinemann's short-lived pacifist center-right party, may survive until the 1957 elections, taking votes from both CDU/CSU and SPD. Or Adenauer still wins in 1957, Kampf dem Atomtod gets stronger than IOTL, an illegal general strike happens, and shit hits the fan.

Edit: Another possibility is that Adenauer fails to unite the Right, either due to a stronger revanchist vote disliking Adenauer's pro-NATO foreign policy, or because the rightist refugee party GB/BHE wins the Hibakusha vote in 1957 and makes the 5% cutoff.

 

[Wallet]

I don't think you can blame nuclear waepons for everything.

This is a stereotype though. Most Americans think Japan is all this weird techno craziness, anime, school girls, Pokémon, and colorful costumes.

That’s like saying all of America is like Hollywood, Kardashians, NBA, or the Simpsons.

Japan is a normal country with normal people. Yes there culture has a different work ethic. And yes, it has more Asian influences than western influences. But people saying Japan is a weird country only look at the pop culture that’s exported here.

My immigrant grandfather who came to the US in the 1950s told me how shocking that the US wasn’t like the US he saw in films