I'm Just Wondering (Italian Empire)

How likely do you think it would be that the Most Serene Republic of Venice would conquer the smaller nations in Italy, and/or colonize the New World, making an Italian Empire in the 1500s/1600s?
 
well, during this time period venice has two large obstacles in its way to do those things.

1st, it has no access to the atlantic. with spain controlling both sides of the pillars of hercules, any mediterranean power would be confined there without direct atlantic access.

2nd, aragon and later spain held lands in southern italy. if venice tried unifying the peninsula they would likely intervene. these lands were also held by hapsburgs, who later would take the lands along the adriatic ruled by venice.

now i'm not saying it is impossible, this it AH dammit! but, these are the problems that need to be addressed for what you want to happen
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Venice had open access to the eastern trade, this is the main reason Venice didn't care about the new world to begin with.
 
I'm wondering... but generally the control of an Atlantic port must be an essential condition for a Mediterrean state to colonial expansion?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
I'm wondering... but generally the control of an Atlantic port must be an essential condition for a Mediterrean state to colonial expansion?
Before the 1800s, almost certainly. Kurland managed to be a colonial power for some time without access to the Atlantic Ocean / North Sea, but it wasn't profitable to depend on the benevolence of the Swedes and Danes who controlled the access to the Atlantic (and tended to demand outrageou fees). Any Italian power would have a problem with Spanish controlling the Gibraltar, and thus able to literary pillage all Italian ships going to the New World.
 
so... oh god i must be insane... is the solution to all this an italian invasion of and holding of gibraltar?
 
so... oh god i must be insane... is the solution to all this an italian invasion of and holding of gibraltar?

It will be awesome:cool:
But for being doable it's need at least the unification of North Italy under a same monarch or Venice in this case she first try an expansion in inner Italy (Romagna and Milan)
 

yourworstnightmare

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Donor
It will be awesome:cool:
But for being doable it's need at least the unification of North Italy under a same monarch or Venice in this case she first try an expansion in inner Italy (Romagna and Milan)
Well, Venice is not really a good candidate, since she had no need for expansion in central Italy, and wasn't in need of colonial goods. Try unify Italy under the Sforzas instead, they had a decent chance.
 
maybe milan. weren't they the strongman in n. italy? if they invaded venice, or united through marriage or something
 

yourworstnightmare

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Donor
maybe milan. weren't they the strongman in n. italy? if they invaded venice, or united through marriage or something
Well, Venice was a Republic, so unification through marriage was not possible. Milan had a decent chance to conquer much of Northern Italy under the Sforzas though. Boost them by having them inherit Savoie or something.
 
Well, Venice was a Republic, so unification through marriage was not possible. Milan had a decent chance to conquer much of Northern Italy under the Sforzas though. Boost them by having them inherit Savoie or something.

i knew that. god i'm dumb sometimes. anyway, yeah, and perhaps if they took out genoa while they were at it, that would make quite the prosperous northern italian state
 
Milan had a decent chance to conquer much of Northern Italy under the Sforzas though. Boost them by having them inherit Savoie or something.

However, the main problem for the Sforza were the dynastical claims...

Well, Venice was a Republic, so unification through marriage was not possible. Milan had a decent chance to conquer much of Northern Italy under the Sforzas though. Boost them by having them inherit Savoie or something.

Maybe, if the Venetian won at Agnadello and smashed the Cambrai league... the road to conquest most of North Italy could be open.
 
No they aren't, or at least not enthusiastic about it; the Terra Firma was a pain in the ass to run and mostly cost them money: it was mainly a way to defend themselves.

On the other side, the control of Milan could give Venice more manpower and the italian monopoly over textile manufactory; the control of the Padan rivers could also give a boost over Venetian trade...
 
Actually Milan was much closer to unify Northern Italy under the Visconti. The Sforzas took the power after the Peace of Lodi when a block of all the other Italian powers had more or less coalesced to stop them led by Venice and Florence.
 
I'm only using this timeline for an Age of Empires III campaign I'm making, so it doesn't have to be very logical, just enough that it doesn't stretch the willing suspension of disbelief.

Here's currently what I've thought up.

The First Italian War is kicked off with Venice uniting most of Italy against the French and Papal States, in the process conquering Milan and northern Papal States. Naples gets the southern Papal States, and Ferdinand II becomes Pope.

The Second Italian War is another invasion by Catholic France and the Holy Roman Empire. Once again, the Italian nations hold off an invasion, though at greater price. Venice begins conquering more of Central and Northern Italy. I'm not sure why; maybe an OC (original character) becomes ruler of Venice?

A campaign results in Mantua, Modena, Ferrara, and Lucca becoming Venetian possessions by 1517. I'm not sure who Savoy, Montferrat, and Trent were friendly with, but I have a feeling they were more sympathetic to the French and Holy Romans. I'll have to do more research on them.

The goal of my timeline is basically to have these things happen:
- Venice takes control of all of Italy, Naples and Aragon being optional.
- Now that you've pointed it out, Venice takes control of the Straits of Gibraltar.
- Venice becomes a major power in Europe.
- Venice builds a colonial empire in America OR Asia. I'm not sure if I can represent Africa with Age of Empires III's scenario editor, though I could still have that in the timeline.

For those of you who don't know, Age of Empires III is a computer game where you lead a colonial nation.
 
Actually Milan was much closer to unify Northern Italy under the Visconti. The Sforzas took the power after the Peace of Lodi when a block of all the other Italian powers had more or less coalesced to stop them led by Venice and Florence.

Yes, i agree. The Visconti were much capable. The Sforza may be bringed Milan to cultural splendor but they ended their rule in shame...
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
I'm only using this timeline for an Age of Empires III campaign I'm making, so it doesn't have to be very logical, just enough that it doesn't stretch the willing suspension of disbelief.

Here's currently what I've thought up.

The First Italian War is kicked off with Venice uniting most of Italy against the French and Papal States, in the process conquering Milan and northern Papal States. Naples gets the southern Papal States, and Ferdinand II becomes Pope.

The Second Italian War is another invasion by Catholic France and the Holy Roman Empire. Once again, the Italian nations hold off an invasion, though at greater price. Venice begins conquering more of Central and Northern Italy. I'm not sure why; maybe an OC (original character) becomes ruler of Venice?

A campaign results in Mantua, Modena, Ferrara, and Lucca becoming Venetian possessions by 1517. I'm not sure who Savoy, Montferrat, and Trent were friendly with, but I have a feeling they were more sympathetic to the French and Holy Romans. I'll have to do more research on them.

The goal of my timeline is basically to have these things happen:
- Venice takes control of all of Italy, Naples and Aragon being optional.
- Now that you've pointed it out, Venice takes control of the Straits of Gibraltar.
- Venice becomes a major power in Europe.
- Venice builds a colonial empire in America OR Asia. I'm not sure if I can represent Africa with Age of Empires III's scenario editor, though I could still have that in the timeline.

For those of you who don't know, Age of Empires III is a computer game where you lead a colonial nation.
You still need a reason for Venice to be interested in Africa, America and Asia. The Venetian merchants got what they needed from the Mediterranean. And as long as they consider it a Venetian State, they won't care what the other Italians want or need, since they're not Venetians and should shut up and do what the Republic tell them to do.
 
Venice cannot pursue both her trading empire in the eastern Mediterranean and a major expansion in northern Italy at the same time: the republic has to choose, and I would believe that trading (which has always been the life of Venice) has to take precedence.

IOTL the Venice of XV century tried to play on both tables, with poor overall results (also due to an underextimation of the Ottoman seapower in the second half of the century).

IMHO there are two possible PODs, both in 1402:
a) Gian Galeazzo Visconti does not die of plague at the height of his success. The duke of Milan lives another 20 years, and consolidates his estates while grooming his sons for the succession. By the time of his death in 1422 a solid Viscontean state is the main power in Italy and a clear line of succession is established: whichever of his two sons succeeds to the throne will prove a competent enough ruler to hold the state together and expand (Piedmont? Genoa? kingdom of Naples?). The duke and the doge are allied of convenience, since both benefit from each other: Milan gets fat on the inland trade from Venice to central Europe and Venice is protected on the mainland side and can hire Milanese troops for her wars in the east. By the end of XV century a Visconti will buy the crown of Italy from the emperor and Venice will have shifted her main commercial interests from Constantinople to Alexandria (and hopefully beyond: Venice planned a canal to connect Red sea and Mediterranean, but the Italian wars and the Ottoman pressure never allowed a window of opportunity to make it real)
b) Gian Galeazzo dies in 1402. There is no real change until 1447, when the last male Visconti, Filippo Maria, dies and the Ambrosian Republic is proclaimed. ITTL Venice aids the fledgling republic to defeat all the claimants to the ducal throne and a perpetual alliance is signed between the two republics. This scenario is much more complicated, since at the death of Gian Galeazzo the duchy of Milan lost a significant number of the cities conquered by him (not to mention that the Ambrosian republic was a bit shaky from the beginning). It might work, though. The goal in both cases is to marry the population base and the agriculture of northern Italy to the commercial empire and the richness of Venice without involving the latter in a long and exhausting war on the mainland.

Either a) or b) can easily result in a Venetian presence in the Indian ocean and the acquisition of bases in India and Malacca (obviously competing against the Portuguese coming from the cape of Good Hope. And before someone raises the issue, it is also obvious that to be capable of power projection in the Indian ocean Venice need ocean going ships similar to the Portugues nao - which was well known to Venetians, but considered less apt than oar galleys for Mediterranean trade).
 
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