Illegal Coffee!

The Ottoman authorities were quite suspicious about coffee in the early days (~15th century); no doubt it had some connotation of alcohol as well as of Arabic obstinacy.


What happens if together with all the great reforms, legalization of coffee doesn't take place?

The following seems almost sure: It will continue to be consumed in secret;
it will also spread to Europe, only slower and in lesser supply;
and although Europe will find little against this new drink, it will retain an aura of wickedness - making it a luxury even more expensive and - for the sober and decent - not worthwhile. At the same time, some of the wealthiest people of Italy will become fanatic for this stuff ...

How will this all end?

:eek:
 
The Ottoman authorities were quite suspicious about coffee in the early days (~15th century); no doubt it had some connotation of alcohol as well as of Arabic obstinacy.


What happens if together with all the great reforms, legalization of coffee doesn't take place?

The following seems almost sure: It will continue to be consumed in secret;
it will also spread to Europe, only slower and in lesser supply;
and although Europe will find little against this new drink, it will retain an aura of wickedness - making it a luxury even more expensive and - for the sober and decent - not worthwhile. At the same time, some of the wealthiest people of Italy will become fanatic for this stuff ...

How will this all end?

:eek:
IIRC, the Koran actually outlaws 'strong drink', so a valid argument can be made, I think, that coffee is un-Islamic.

It would be interesting.
 

Lusitania

Donor
IIRC, the Koran actually outlaws 'strong drink', so a valid argument can be made, I think, that coffee is un-Islamic.

It would be interesting.

I would be in terrible shape, I think alot of us would how would we function. So many of us a caffeine addics what would we use now. Well maybe tea.

But on the topic of Koran banning alcohol I guess that is why it is allowed to smoke or take drugs because the Koran does not ban them. I am wrong in saying that?
 
Wasn't coffee already quite popular in Arabia prior to its popularity among the Ottomans? I guess I don't know how Islamic history works, but wouldn't have to have been banned there first to be banned in all of Islam?

Also, is it just going to be coffee, or all caffeine drinks?

But really, what if all it did was delay entry into the west until later, perhaps even just making it an "exotic" curiosity like the betel nut? There would still be plenty of tea for caffeine junkies, and eventually some chemists are still going to isolate caffeine for stronger drinks.

Or maybe it becomes even more popular in Europe more quickly, without the stigma of it being a Turkish drink.

Heck, coffee shops might become hot chocolate shops instead... the world would be much better.
 
This wouldn't be too different from some religious groups outside the Ottoman Empire - IIRC, the Mormons ban consumption of tea and coffee. So it would be interesting to see what happens.
 
I could be wrong, but I think the ban in the Koran is literally against "fermented beverages".
However it is clear from the context that alcholic (i.e. inebriating) beverages are meant (otherwise, the yoghurt would be illegal!).
On the other hand, coffee is often referred as "arabian wine", and it is true that around 1500 there was a reformist movement in the ottoman empire that tried to return to "a purer" form of Islam and ban coffehouses (rather than coffee), considering them alike to what Victorian upper classes considered pubs. A good book depicting it is "My name is Red", by Pamuk
If I remember well, at Soliman time an apposite fatwa had to be done to sanction the fact that a good muslim is allowed do drink coffee
 
Well, does this butterfly its popularity in Europe? What about tea? Caffeine was a notable factor in the industrial revolution...face it, how else are you going to get humans to work those hours? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:eek::mad::(:confused:....neeed aannoothr cuuup....
 
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
:eek:

I am glad you made this point, and I heartily agree.


Wasn't coffee already quite popular in Arabia prior to its popularity among the Ottomans? I guess I don't know how Islamic history works, but wouldn't have to have been banned there first to be banned in all of Islam?

Well, coffee consumption in Arabia is much younger than Islam, so it is a challenge of new times. I don't think the scholars in Constantinople would hand this question down to the Arabic hillbillies (in their eyes) ...

Or maybe it becomes even more popular in Europe more quickly, without the stigma of it being a Turkish drink.

Then they somehow have to come in touch with it and get supplies avoiding Ottoman territory ... seems tough until the late 19th century.

Heck, coffee shops might become hot chocolate shops instead... the world would be much better.

That's a nice idea!

On the other hand, coffee is often referred as "arabian wine", and it is true that around 1500 there was a reformist movement in the ottoman empire that tried to return to "a purer" form of Islam and ban coffehouses (rather than coffee), considering them alike to what Victorian upper classes considered pubs.

Oh. If the criticism was indeed restricted to this point, this would make everything a bit less dramatic.
 
It is worth noting that when coffee was first introduced to England at least, it was considered by some with suspiscion and as being worse than beer! (Then again beer could be much weaker as in the case of 'small beer'). This must have been similar elsewhere in Europe, seeing as IIRC Bach wrote a Coffee Cantata about a father and his duaghter whom he won't allow to marry unless she gets rid of the no doubt wicked habit of drinking coffee... and of course she can't...
 

NothingNow

Banned
Guarana becomes the standard Caffeinated drink in Western Europe. Brazil still becomes a profitable colony for Production.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Guarana becomes the standard Caffeinated drink in Western Europe. Brazil still becomes a profitable colony for Production.
 
Note that the legal status of coffee does not only depend on the question how Ottoman law scholars see it in the light of the Koran. Even if there is no compelling reason to forbid coffee on religious basis, the rulers may well find it appropriate to rule out any harm coming from this substance. But I am not sure what the actual reasoning cocktail was like ...

This must have been similar elsewhere in Europe, seeing as IIRC Bach wrote a Coffee Cantata about a father and his daughter whom he won't allow to marry unless she gets rid of the no doubt wicked habit of drinking coffee... and of course she can't...

In other words, she prefers coffee over men; a stance I would rather not comment on now.

But the coffee cantata is an entertaining comedy, not a morality play showing you the truth about your soul's black liquid threat.
At least by Bach's time, coffee was no doubt viewed as something very special in many regards, but I don't think there was too much suspicion against it.
 
Well, assuming we still find the New World- chewing coca leaves might become a little more widespread :D.
 
Note that the legal status of coffee does not only depend on the question how Ottoman law scholars see it in the light of the Koran


In that very case it did.
Suleiman (Kanuni: the restaurator of Justinian's Canon) wanted to introduce (or re-introduce) a corpus-iuris roman-like in the ottoman empire (substiuting the traditional sharia), and in order to do so he had to justify each law in the eyes of the believers.
He did so by means of a serie of fatwas by the well respected Grand Mufti Ebussuud of Istambul (Sheik-Al-Islam), which responses had the pretence of being "universal" for every muslim (even if several ones did not agree with that pretence :D) and which were enforced as "state laws" in the ottoman empire
 
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