Ike dies after the Battle of the Bulge

The 36th Infantry Division (based on Texas National Guard units) suffered heavy casualties during the Rapido River crossing under Clarke, leading to a post-war Congressional investigation.
Okay I forgot Clark had some goofs that he learned from also he was active duty into Korea.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The 36th Infantry Division (based on Texas National Guard units) suffered heavy casualties during the Rapido River crossing under Clarke, leading to a post-war Congressional investigation.

Just finished reading about this in Rick Atkinson's The Day of Battle (outstanding book, by the way). One gets the feeling that the Texans would have been as happy to shoot Clark as Hitler after the Rapido River disaster.
 
well then Who does Taft pick for VP. I doubt it's Nixon

Most likely Nixon's fellow-Californian William Knowland. Knowland was popular with Asia-Firsters because of his strong support for Chiang Kai-shek, yet had also supported the Marshall Plan and the North Atlantic Treaty, so to some extent he could conciliate the "internationalist" wing of the GOP.
 
Which has some butterfly's of itself being he took over for Taft as the Republican leader of the senate and with him as VP that means he would not run for Gov of California in 58 vs Brown

Which also means that we get President Knowland if Taft dies on schedule. Of course that could be butterflied, but I'm pretty inclined to think deaths like that aren't affected.
 
Which also means that we get President Knowland if Taft dies on schedule. Of course that could be butterflied, but I'm pretty inclined to think deaths like that aren't affected.

nah Taft was a dead man walking by 52 by my guess. That level of Cancer had to been started well before 52
 
nah Taft was a dead man walking by 52 by my guess. That level of Cancer had to been started well before 52

That's what I'm saying is that its likely he still dies on cue, which means that, if elected, he would die only a few months into his Presidency. Knowland would then be President from August of '53 to 61, if he gets reelected. Of course, Taft might not win in the general, falling to maybe Stevenson or hell, maybe Truman.
 
Devers may have been Bradley's senior, but how many senior officers was Eisenhower promoted over, throughout the war?

I think Bradley is the pick, though I don't think Patton would take over 12 Army Group. Perhaps Hodges would, with Collins or more likely Gerow replacing Hodges.
 
That's what I'm saying is that its likely he still dies on cue, which means that, if elected, he would die only a few months into his Presidency. Knowland would then be President from August of '53 to 61, if he gets reelected. Of course, Taft might not win in the general, falling to maybe Stevenson or hell, maybe Truman.

I feel by 52 Truman is ready to go home. tho in OTL Truman did try to get Ike to run as a Democrat to replace him.
Poor Stevenson I fear is doomed to always be the runner up. Maybe he beats Knowland in 56?
 
Devers may have been Bradley's senior, but how many senior officers was Eisenhower promoted over, throughout the war?

I think Bradley is the pick, though I don't think Patton would take over 12 Army Group. Perhaps Hodges would, with Collins or more likely Gerow replacing Hodges.

Hodges as an Army Group commander?:eek:

Not only is Devers more senior, but he has experience at theatre command levels. Remember that Eisenhower as well as heading SHAEF, was also US Theatre Commander. The loss of Eisenhower might lead to a separation of roles, including the appointment of a ground forces commander (which Bradley might get).
 
Devers may have been Bradley's senior, but how many senior officers was Eisenhower promoted over, throughout the war?
While it may be true that Eisenhower was promoted over senior officers, Devers commanded the ETOUSA after LTG. Frank Andrew's death and afterwards, commanded NATOUSA and Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, Mediterranean Theater, to General Henry M. Wilson. In addition, Winston Churchill and Alan Brooke have dealt with Devers before and probably knew him on a personal basis while he commanded ETOUSA, Devers was also in good terms with Gen. Marshall. In comparison, Gen. O.N. Bradley had no experience with theatre level command and had little experience dealing with politics.

I think Bradley is the pick, though I don't think Patton would take over 12 Army Group. Perhaps Hodges would, with Collins or more likely Gerow replacing Hodges.
Oh, Christ on a cross! Courtney Hodges as commander of 12th AG would be disaster!
 
I don't disagree, but SOMEBODY has to replace Bradley, or Devers. It won't be Patton, but it has to be an American. It also won't be MacArthur, obviously, and George Marshall isn't taking a demotion.

So that leaves Hodges, Simpson, Patch, and I suppose Mark Clark. Am I missing anyone?
 
I don't disagree, but SOMEBODY has to replace Bradley, or Devers. It won't be Patton, but it has to be an American. It also won't be MacArthur, obviously, and George Marshall isn't taking a demotion.

So that leaves Hodges, Simpson, Patch, and I suppose Mark Clark. Am I missing anyone?

Probably the best US general in Europe - Truscott.

Eisenhower would have preferred him to Patton for Normandy, but the Mediterranean wouldn't release him.
 
Probably the best US general in Europe - Truscott.

Eisenhower would have preferred him to Patton for Normandy, but the Mediterranean wouldn't release him.

I didn't forget about Truscott - I just didn't consider him due to seniority. He was a fantastic Corps commander, but at the time in question had commanded 5th Army for what, about 2 weeks?
 
I didn't forget about Truscott - I just didn't consider him due to seniority. He was a fantastic Corps commander, but at the time in question had commanded 5th Army for what, about 2 weeks?
I'm not sure Truscott got be reassigned from the Med. However, I'd assume that Alexander Patch would take over the 6th Army Group and either Edwards H. Brooks (VI Corps) or Wade Haislip (XV Corps) or Lightning Joe Collins (though he suffers in seniority) or Troy H Middleton.
Note: L.T Gerow was commanding the 15th Army after the Battle of the Bulge and overall, Haislip seems to be the most senior in rank.
 
Yeah, if Devers takes over 12AG, I agree that Patch is his likely replacement.

Question - while I am certainly aware of why you objected to Hodges replacing Bradley, are these objections based in hindsight or were they extant at the time? Look at the various overpromoted generals who made a hash of things, but we're well regarded at the time - Fredendall and Clark, most prominently. And Mark Clark's career didn't precisely suffer for his mistakes.
 
Yeah, if Devers takes over 12AG, I agree that Patch is his likely replacement.

Question - while I am certainly aware of why you objected to Hodges replacing Bradley, are these objections based in hindsight or were they extant at the time? Look at the various overpromoted generals who made a hash of things, but we're well regarded at the time - Fredendall and Clark, most prominently. And Mark Clark's career didn't precisely suffer for his mistakes.
I'll have to made it, my objections were made with hindsight. Despite the disasters of Hutrgen force and the Bulge, General Courtney Hodges was highly thought of by both Eisenhower and Bradley. If I'm not mistaken, Leonard T. Gerow was blamed for 'poor combat performance' at Hurtgen forest.

The disasters of both Hurtgen forest and the Bulge would probably be overlooked and Hodges would most likely be promoted to CO of 12th AG.
 
Top