Diamond
Banned
I like that format. It's similar to the one I used in my 'Different 20th Century' Timeline:
Different 20th Century
Different 20th Century
IFP Remake
- Thread starter Othniel
- Start date
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
The 1908 format is definitely better. If you want to go with more detail, highlight the non-OTL bits in a different color. I haven't commented too much yet because you're still in the territory of our PM exchange. This is a great timeline.
However, and this is coming from a crazed airship enthusiast, ONE HUNDRED passenger airships in 1908?!? That might be a tad carried away. If it's just a PLAN for 100 passenger airships, that's not unrealistic, since people in this time period could get pretty wildly overoptimistic about progress.
However, and this is coming from a crazed airship enthusiast, ONE HUNDRED passenger airships in 1908?!? That might be a tad carried away. If it's just a PLAN for 100 passenger airships, that's not unrealistic, since people in this time period could get pretty wildly overoptimistic about progress.
Presidental Teaser
Philander C. Knox
Order: 27th President
Term of Office: March 4, 1909– March 4, 1913
Date of Birth: Wednesday, October 27, 1858
Place of Birth: Brownsville, Pennsylvania
Date of Death: October 12, 1921
Place of Death: Washington, D.C.
Occupation: and. consultant, Attorney General, Senator
Political Party: Republican
Vice President: Andrew William Mellon
(1909-1913)
Knox was born in Brownsville, Pennsylvania and graduated from Mount Union College in 1872. He was admitted to the bar in 1875 and practiced in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. From 1876-1877 he was Assistant United States Attorney for the Western District of Pennsylvania and became President of the Pennsylvania Bar Association in 1897.
As counsel for the Carnegie Steel Company, he took a prominent part in organizing the United States Steel Corporation in 1901. He served as Attorney General in the cabinets of Presidents McKinley and Theodore Roosevelt from 1901 to 1904. In June 1904, when he was appointed by Governor Samuel W. Pennypacker of Pennsylvania to fill the unexpired term of Matthew S. Quay in the United States Senate; in 1905 he was re-elected to the Senate for the full term (to 1909).
He sucessful became President of the United States, beating Taft out of the bid. His anti-trust, dollar diplomacy goverment did very well. He saw both Arizona and Cuba gain Statehood.
The 16th amendment (But not the popular election of Senators (17th) was also ratified during his office. It Sates: ""The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
By the end of his term the Republican party was stronger than ever. He however decided to serve only one term, sense many had thought he had esstenially bought the office.
Philander C. Knox
Order: 27th President
Term of Office: March 4, 1909– March 4, 1913
Date of Birth: Wednesday, October 27, 1858
Place of Birth: Brownsville, Pennsylvania
Date of Death: October 12, 1921
Place of Death: Washington, D.C.
Occupation: and. consultant, Attorney General, Senator
Political Party: Republican
Vice President: Andrew William Mellon
(1909-1913)
Knox was born in Brownsville, Pennsylvania and graduated from Mount Union College in 1872. He was admitted to the bar in 1875 and practiced in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. From 1876-1877 he was Assistant United States Attorney for the Western District of Pennsylvania and became President of the Pennsylvania Bar Association in 1897.
As counsel for the Carnegie Steel Company, he took a prominent part in organizing the United States Steel Corporation in 1901. He served as Attorney General in the cabinets of Presidents McKinley and Theodore Roosevelt from 1901 to 1904. In June 1904, when he was appointed by Governor Samuel W. Pennypacker of Pennsylvania to fill the unexpired term of Matthew S. Quay in the United States Senate; in 1905 he was re-elected to the Senate for the full term (to 1909).
He sucessful became President of the United States, beating Taft out of the bid. His anti-trust, dollar diplomacy goverment did very well. He saw both Arizona and Cuba gain Statehood.
The 16th amendment (But not the popular election of Senators (17th) was also ratified during his office. It Sates: ""The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
By the end of his term the Republican party was stronger than ever. He however decided to serve only one term, sense many had thought he had esstenially bought the office.
Last edited:
Zeplin released his plans in 1908. (Jan. 9th.) in OTL. If he becomes ambitious, or the Americans decide to attempt to compete (which is plausible.) We might see Airships in hardy supply until they get replaced by a more practical application. I'm hoping for a more transport worthy helicopter than airships though.Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Also here is a lite tl for his presidentcy:
#27 Philander Chase Knox (1909-1913)
1858 Oct 27, Philander Chase Knox , 27th president of the United States (1909-1913), was born in Brownsville.
(AP, 3/8/98)(HNQ, 12/10/98)(MC, 3/8/02)
1908 Nov 3, Republican Philander Chase Knox was elected the 27th president, outpolling William Jennings Bryan. Andrew Mellon was the VP.
(AP, 11/3/97)(HN, 11/3/98)(SFC, 10/1/99, p.B6)
1909 Mar 4, President Knox was inaugurated as 27th President during a 10" snowstorm.
(SC, 3/4/02)
1909 Dec 1, President Knox severed official relations with Nicaragua’s Zelaya government, and declared support for the revolutionaries.
(HN, 12/1/98)
1910 Apr 14, President Philander Chase Knox began a sports tradition by throwing out the first pitch on baseball’s Opening Day. Knox threw to Washington Senator pitcher Walter Johnson, who went on to hurl a shutout win, allowing the Philadelphia Phillies just one hit and ending the day with a 3-0 victory for Washington.
(HNQ, 8/9/02)
1910 Nov 8, Democrats prevailed in congressional elections for the first time since 1894, gaining the house majority but the Senate remained Republican.
(HN, 11/6/98)
1911 Aug 22, President Philander Chase Knox encouraged a joint resolution of Congress granting statehood to Arizona. Although the clause in the Arizona State Contusion to recall judges almost saw the Senate not pass the statehood resolution.
1912 April 3, Hannava is granted Statehood.
February 27-29, 1912
Panama
Colon, Panama City
Met with President Chiari and Foreign Minister Arjona. Left U.S. February 23.
March 1-4, 1912
Costa Rica
Limon, San Jose, Puntarenas
Met with President Jimenez and Foreign Minister Castro Quesada.
March 5-7, 1912
Nicaragua
Corinto, Managua
Met with President Diaz and Foreign Minister Chamorro; addressed the National Assembly.
March 8-9, 1912
Honduras
Amapala
Met with Foreign Minister Vasquez.
March 10-13, 1912
El Salvador
Acajutla, San Salvador
Met with President Araujo and Foreign Minister Castro Ramirez.
March 14-17, 1912
Guatemala
San Jose, Guatemala City, Quirigua, Puerto Barrios
Met with President Estrada Cabrera and Foreign Minister Toledo Herrarte;addressed the Legislature.
March 22-25, 1912
Venezuela
La Guaira, Caracas, Porto Cabello
Met with President Gomez and Foreign Minister Matos; delivered several public addresses.
March 27-28, 1912
Dominican Republic
Santo Domingo
Met with President Victoria.
March 30, 1912
Denmark
St. Thomas
Met with Danish colonial (Virgin Islands) officials.
April 3-4, 1912
Haiti
Port-au-Prince
Met with President Leconte and Foreign Minister Leger.
April 5-7, 1912
Cuba
Havanna
Met with Govener Gomez.
April 8, 1912
United Kingdom
Kingston, Port Antonio
Met with British colonial officials during unofficial (Jamaica) visit.
August 9 to 22, 1912
Japan
Tokyo
Attended funeral ceremony for Emperor Mutsuhit; left U.S. August 22; returned August 29th.
#27 Philander Chase Knox (1909-1913)
1858 Oct 27, Philander Chase Knox , 27th president of the United States (1909-1913), was born in Brownsville.
(AP, 3/8/98)(HNQ, 12/10/98)(MC, 3/8/02)
1908 Nov 3, Republican Philander Chase Knox was elected the 27th president, outpolling William Jennings Bryan. Andrew Mellon was the VP.
(AP, 11/3/97)(HN, 11/3/98)(SFC, 10/1/99, p.B6)
1909 Mar 4, President Knox was inaugurated as 27th President during a 10" snowstorm.
(SC, 3/4/02)
1909 Dec 1, President Knox severed official relations with Nicaragua’s Zelaya government, and declared support for the revolutionaries.
(HN, 12/1/98)
1910 Apr 14, President Philander Chase Knox began a sports tradition by throwing out the first pitch on baseball’s Opening Day. Knox threw to Washington Senator pitcher Walter Johnson, who went on to hurl a shutout win, allowing the Philadelphia Phillies just one hit and ending the day with a 3-0 victory for Washington.
(HNQ, 8/9/02)
1910 Nov 8, Democrats prevailed in congressional elections for the first time since 1894, gaining the house majority but the Senate remained Republican.
(HN, 11/6/98)
1911 Aug 22, President Philander Chase Knox encouraged a joint resolution of Congress granting statehood to Arizona. Although the clause in the Arizona State Contusion to recall judges almost saw the Senate not pass the statehood resolution.
1912 April 3, Hannava is granted Statehood.
February 27-29, 1912
Panama
Colon, Panama City
Met with President Chiari and Foreign Minister Arjona. Left U.S. February 23.
March 1-4, 1912
Costa Rica
Limon, San Jose, Puntarenas
Met with President Jimenez and Foreign Minister Castro Quesada.
March 5-7, 1912
Nicaragua
Corinto, Managua
Met with President Diaz and Foreign Minister Chamorro; addressed the National Assembly.
March 8-9, 1912
Honduras
Amapala
Met with Foreign Minister Vasquez.
March 10-13, 1912
El Salvador
Acajutla, San Salvador
Met with President Araujo and Foreign Minister Castro Ramirez.
March 14-17, 1912
Guatemala
San Jose, Guatemala City, Quirigua, Puerto Barrios
Met with President Estrada Cabrera and Foreign Minister Toledo Herrarte;addressed the Legislature.
March 22-25, 1912
Venezuela
La Guaira, Caracas, Porto Cabello
Met with President Gomez and Foreign Minister Matos; delivered several public addresses.
March 27-28, 1912
Dominican Republic
Santo Domingo
Met with President Victoria.
March 30, 1912
Denmark
St. Thomas
Met with Danish colonial (Virgin Islands) officials.
April 3-4, 1912
Haiti
Port-au-Prince
Met with President Leconte and Foreign Minister Leger.
April 5-7, 1912
Cuba
Havanna
Met with Govener Gomez.
April 8, 1912
United Kingdom
Kingston, Port Antonio
Met with British colonial officials during unofficial (Jamaica) visit.
August 9 to 22, 1912
Japan
Tokyo
Attended funeral ceremony for Emperor Mutsuhit; left U.S. August 22; returned August 29th.
Is mine assertion of Knox correct? That he would simply do what needs to be done? That under him we might see a fairly effective presidentcy? He basically ran Tafts Presidentcy but was probably wise enough to draw off the popular moves of Roosevelt. http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/Mirrors_of_Washington/historyof_bb.html
HIGHLIGHTS FOR 1909
Three months may show the flow of time better. Remember these are placed in order.
Jan, Feb, March {Pre-Knox}
- California segregation of Japanese schoolchildren laws.
- Anti-Narcotics (Opium) laws (US)
- France recognizes Germany’s trading interest in Morocco, in turn political supremacy for France in Morocco.
- Roosevelt visited the Austrian Embassy.
§ Knox Inaugurated
- Russian invasion of Persia to support Muhammad Ali as Shah
- Assassination of Alexsander Obrenovic. He is replaced by the second son of Peter, Alexsander Karadjordjevic (II). The government started to head back in a Pro-Russian direction.
April, May, June
- Sultan of Turkey, Abdul Hamid II, was overthrown
- May 14, Texan Samuel Franklin Cody became the first to make a powered airplane flight beyond one mile in the United Kingdom. Despite the fact he could read nor write, Cody designed a series of kites, including a huge man-lifting version that could be used for battle reconnaissance. Cody built a large biplane for the British army, which he flew beyond a mile on May 14, 1909. His second flight of the day crashed. Cody died in 1913 when another of his planes broke apart in midair.
July, August, September
- First Military plane (Wright Brothers)
- US Army Air Corp formed when US Army took first delivery of planes.
- First Heavier than air motor driven airplane built.
October, November, December
- 1600 feet reached in an airplane.
- Pearl Harbor construction began.
- US invaded Nicaragua. Later overthrew Zelaya
- First Monoplane flown
Undated significance
Transcontinental service promised by AT&T.
Airships, including Zeppelin, engines are starting to be built by Wilhiem Maybach in Germany.
Mehmed V succeeds Abdul Hamid II
The year saw dominance start towards the air. They could soar far, and fast. Trouble brewed for both Serbia and the Ottoman Empire though. Austria-Hungry remained untouchable in its cravings for control, whilst both the German and American Empires grew in power.
Three months may show the flow of time better. Remember these are placed in order.
Jan, Feb, March {Pre-Knox}
- California segregation of Japanese schoolchildren laws.
- Anti-Narcotics (Opium) laws (US)
- France recognizes Germany’s trading interest in Morocco, in turn political supremacy for France in Morocco.
- Roosevelt visited the Austrian Embassy.
§ Knox Inaugurated
- Russian invasion of Persia to support Muhammad Ali as Shah
- Assassination of Alexsander Obrenovic. He is replaced by the second son of Peter, Alexsander Karadjordjevic (II). The government started to head back in a Pro-Russian direction.
April, May, June
- Sultan of Turkey, Abdul Hamid II, was overthrown
- May 14, Texan Samuel Franklin Cody became the first to make a powered airplane flight beyond one mile in the United Kingdom. Despite the fact he could read nor write, Cody designed a series of kites, including a huge man-lifting version that could be used for battle reconnaissance. Cody built a large biplane for the British army, which he flew beyond a mile on May 14, 1909. His second flight of the day crashed. Cody died in 1913 when another of his planes broke apart in midair.
July, August, September
- First Military plane (Wright Brothers)
- US Army Air Corp formed when US Army took first delivery of planes.
- First Heavier than air motor driven airplane built.
October, November, December
- 1600 feet reached in an airplane.
- Pearl Harbor construction began.
- US invaded Nicaragua. Later overthrew Zelaya
- First Monoplane flown
Undated significance
Transcontinental service promised by AT&T.
Airships, including Zeppelin, engines are starting to be built by Wilhiem Maybach in Germany.
Mehmed V succeeds Abdul Hamid II
The year saw dominance start towards the air. They could soar far, and fast. Trouble brewed for both Serbia and the Ottoman Empire though. Austria-Hungry remained untouchable in its cravings for control, whilst both the German and American Empires grew in power.
Ok, heres a question for all of you. I delayed the annexation of Serbia. What happens during the Balkland Wars? I think Serbia still enters because of the power behind King Alex II, Peter I, but what happens to Serbia when Austria-Hungary takes Bosnia-Herzog right before the Balkland Wars? Do you see an Ottoman Austrian-Hungary Alliance against the meddling Balklanders or something else?
Hm, if Austria-Hungary is feeling even more anti-Serb than OTL for some reason, it may stand behind Bulgaria in the Second Balkan War, to prevent Serbia from gaining parts of Macedonia. I'm not sure if they'd win, however, if they do, Greece and Serbia lose land, and Bulgaria is much bigger.Othniel said:
Oh, and one more thing. I'm looking for whom could wisely guide the US. They would just have to ingunitive enough yo figure out Artillary spotting. For the real first time in history you can have one man go miles ahead of the artillary and radio in their postion on a grid. Accurate and miles away. The US and France have both shown tendencies toward that trend. Canada, Germany and GB are close behind them in that. Air plane spotters would be used early on, but single men scout parties would work as well. Any suggestions to that idea?
Acualty the Serbs are just more... youthful? They seem to more active after the coup and replacement. The Ambitions of young Alexzander K. (whom I know little about...) They are clinging to Russia.Imajin said:
Also, you can all hopefully tell by now that I have ruined WWI as we know it. For one thing, there is no Wilson. For anouther thing I have put Japan on corse for a war with the US. (No difference there.) Russia will still fall (albeit, a bit later), but there are other places of intrest. Mongollia for one will be helped out into the light. I'm thinking of ways to aviod the Maoist goverment from arising though. I was thinking of several different Kingdoms and Republics arising but not sure how that will work. Really I'm trying to work on this from presidency to presidentcy so it's going to seem to be cause and effect more and more.
Last edited:
Grey Wolf
Donor
Othniel said:
Well, the simplest way to avoid Mao is to avoid the Red victory in Russia, so have the Whites and the nationalists win there.
As for China itself, there are many potential PODs. Yuan Shih'kai is one, with his attempt to recreate the empire in 1916.
Alternatively, you could see a surviving central regime, perhaps kill off yon Little Emperor and have one of the Imperial Princes attain the mantle. The rest of China falls away, as with the Taiping and other rebellions in the 1860s. How this turns out is confusing.
I think the 'Age of Warlords' in the 1920s period casts a shadow backwards that is not always helpful. It is certainly not the only model for the fragmentation of China, and its unsustainability does not reflect on other possibilities.
You could have Muslim revolts in both Sinkiang (Turkic Muslims) and the West of China (Chinese Muslims), national revolts in the South, and then fragmented republics or military dictatorships in the East.
Tibet is easy but there may well be border problems, such as what is the extent of Tibet - does it include the historically vassal province of Kokonor ?
Mongolia is in a similar position but I see that you have plans for it already
Grey Wolf
The whites won't win, but neither will the reds. I'm looking for a third, fourth and fifth party. (yea, just five.) Suggestions?Grey Wolf said:
I see possiblities there.
What if yon little Emperor was an Emperess?
I was hoping to ferment the feeling That one's past detrimines one's future. A reinvention of the Shang Empire, and some others. Liam, Song, Ming, ect.
Quite doable.
If it gains indpedence it won't be for long. It has aquired a certain lure and will most likely be annexed or turned into a protectorate.
It's smaller, but more consolidated. Instead of going South into China, Russia helps it out by selling it some of Greater Mongollia/Siberia. A buffer to the instabillity of China, and the Aggression of Japan.
Grey Wolf
Donor
The whites won't win, but neither will the reds. I'm looking for a third, fourth and fifth party. (yea, just five.) Suggestions?
I'm not sure this makes massive sense. During the Central Powers' ascendancy after Brest Litovsk, national regimes held sway in the Crimea, Ukraine etc backed with German and Austrian garrisons. After the end of the war and the withdrawal of the Central Powers, these national regimes either became unstable or subject to Bolshevik intrigue.
Armies that would later be identified as White were already in the field before November 1918. One of these was led by Yanukevich (IIRC) in the North and was being set up by Ludendorff for an attack on Petrograd.
In addition, Mannerheim in Finland had an army ready to descend on Petrograd.
The Whites that arose in the South coalesced their monarchist mentalities with the successors to the national regimes and many elements who were simply hostile to the Bolsheviks. There was only a loose alliance between the various factions (eg Deniken and Kolchak). The vast size of Russia did not help concerted action either, especially after Kolchak relocated to Omsk and came within the Japanese sphere of influence.
The problem with saying 'someone other than the Whites' is that after November 1918 the label 'White' came to be applied to all the disparate groups opposed to the Bolshevikes.
So 'someone else' doesn't really work. You need to decide who from amongst the Whites you want to have succeed, or whether you want both sides to implode and something new arise on their ruins
Grey Wolf
I'm not sure this makes massive sense. During the Central Powers' ascendancy after Brest Litovsk, national regimes held sway in the Crimea, Ukraine etc backed with German and Austrian garrisons. After the end of the war and the withdrawal of the Central Powers, these national regimes either became unstable or subject to Bolshevik intrigue.
Armies that would later be identified as White were already in the field before November 1918. One of these was led by Yanukevich (IIRC) in the North and was being set up by Ludendorff for an attack on Petrograd.
In addition, Mannerheim in Finland had an army ready to descend on Petrograd.
The Whites that arose in the South coalesced their monarchist mentalities with the successors to the national regimes and many elements who were simply hostile to the Bolsheviks. There was only a loose alliance between the various factions (eg Deniken and Kolchak). The vast size of Russia did not help concerted action either, especially after Kolchak relocated to Omsk and came within the Japanese sphere of influence.
The problem with saying 'someone other than the Whites' is that after November 1918 the label 'White' came to be applied to all the disparate groups opposed to the Bolshevikes.
So 'someone else' doesn't really work. You need to decide who from amongst the Whites you want to have succeed, or whether you want both sides to implode and something new arise on their ruins
Grey Wolf
Anything else? The effects of certain changes as you see them? For one thing I believe the goal of exspoltion from Central America sooner for the USA is probable. As I see it, smaller countries will look at Cuba and see any US intervention as an attempt to annex their country. Brazil for instance might allow US based companies to work there...but when a bout of instabillity that may harm American lives comes up factions would be careful not to hit tourist sites. The US getting involved would not be an ideal thing for either faction in that regard sense they have a history of annexing when it is forced in their favor. Long term effects point to the US holding on and staying a regional power at this point, but devolpment of an American Rival may be important to this timeline in the long run. Possiblities for a stronger Peru/Chille/Uragauy/<instert random Western hemisphere nation south of Mexico here> starting from Jan 1st 1910 to December 12th, 1931?
Othniel said:
Just a thought - why not have a look at Green forces (peasant armies made up deserters from other sides) - Nestor Makhno, a major figure in anarchism, was involved in the Civil War in the Ukraine - seeking their independence.
A later red victory could lead to the reds having to cede indepedence to territory from some of the geographical extremities of Russia (Yudenich's white army in the Baltics, Makhno's anarchist guerilla's in the Ukraine, Poland winning the Russo-Polish War)
Hope that helped...
Grey Wolf
Donor
Justin Pickard said:
I almost mentioned Makhno
Thanks for correcting me re the army in the North - it was of course Yudenich, I meant. I realised that after I went back to bed.
You've also got fascinating forces in Bokhara, Sinkiang and Mongolia who could play a greatly divergent part in the 1920s
Grey Wolf