Saphroneth
Banned
There's no need to be sarcastic, please. If nothing else, this TL is an exploration of a particular bit of American history intersecting with that of the British Empire.
If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)
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I did read the link ... 3,953,761 (1860 US Census figure) Slaves multiplied by $300 is $1,186,128,300, okay a little under 1.2 Billion.
At $400 per Emancipation its $1,581,504,400.
Still cheaper than the total cost of the war, but a very considerable sum.
The big issue is whether the Slave-Owners would accept the proposal, or the amount offered, since as I mentioned its considerably below the value of their property at Auction.
It would make a fascinating thread to explore, perhaps one where Lincoln Ran for Office on a system of Compensated Emancipation.
It might actually work in the Upper-South where Slavery was becoming increasingly less economically viable, but getting Congress to pay the South a sum greater than the entire pre-war Federal Budget, especially without the realisation of a costly war, tricky?
Having to levy increased taxation, raise loans and issue un-backed paper currency in time of peace!
However, someone please feel free to start a thread, its a good idea.
Saphroneth
Banned
I think a good analogy for how that kind of Compensated Emancipation would be viewed at the time is if there was a proposal to buy (and destroy) every single gun in America.
The gun owners would be pissed because they want their guns, not money; the people who aren't gun owners would feel the same because they'd be expected to pay a lot of money to do this thing they feel is a good idea but don't consider that important so long as there's gun control regulations.
Of course, the analogy is imperfect - the total value of the guns in the US is approximately $400 billion, whereas the total value of slaves would (as an equivalent fraction of the US budget today as it was at the time) be on the order of $5-10 trillion.
Though, of course, I do agree that it should really go in a separate thread.
The gun owners would be pissed because they want their guns, not money; the people who aren't gun owners would feel the same because they'd be expected to pay a lot of money to do this thing they feel is a good idea but don't consider that important so long as there's gun control regulations.
Of course, the analogy is imperfect - the total value of the guns in the US is approximately $400 billion, whereas the total value of slaves would (as an equivalent fraction of the US budget today as it was at the time) be on the order of $5-10 trillion.
Though, of course, I do agree that it should really go in a separate thread.
21-24 September 1863
Saphroneth
Banned
21 September
Richard Gatling demonstrates his two models of Gatling Gun to the US Army and Navy. The smaller model, firing rifle-calibre bullets, makes a reasonably good impression - his idea that a regiment of 1,000 men could be replaced by forty men operating ten Gatling guns is considered overoptimistic (and his idea that this would reduce the size of armies by 96% is seen as total fantasy) but the ability of the gun to offer continuous fire is seen as a potentially useful feature.
The Navy in particular thinks that, with the recent use of spar-torpedo boats by the Confederacy, a Gatling Gun or two for defence might be useful if a place can be found to put them on an ironclad. (Their use on a Monitor of the current type is seen as impossible, and there are inevitable sacrifices with a casemate ironclad as they would be outside the armour - but an armoured frigate cannot really be fully armoured anyway, so there would be no particular increase in vulnerability.) This would not be to damage the vessel but to drive the crew below decks.
The larger model, firing one-pound shells, is less well recieved. The Navy considers it to be unable to do damage to ironclads or indeed most ships (and as such to offer little in addition over the smaller model), the Army thinks that a one-pound shell is barely worth the effort of firing it, and both are not impressed with the unreliability of the mechanism if forced to try and handle such large shocks of firing.
The US Navy orders two Gatlings for further evaluation, and the Army orders one. All three are of the smaller type.
24 September
King Frederick VII of Denmark has a health scare caused by a rumour about pneumonia, resulting in the debates and arguments about the succession (and the constitution of Schleiswig and Holstein) coming into high gear.
The Schleiswig-Holstein question is already the most complicated matter in Europe - one famous joke by Lord Palmerston states that “Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it" - but the core of the problem is relatively simple. Danish inheritance law differs from that of the duchies of Schleiswig and Holstein, and with King Frederick VII childless the two inheritances are shortly to diverge for the first time in centuries; coupled with this is that there is a gradual increase in German linguistic and cultural dominance as one moves down the Jutland peninsula. The status quo is currently enforced by the London Protocol, which holds that further integration or disintegration of the Danish Federation is to be viewed negatively.
Bismarck is currently grumbling about the marvellous opportunity that may be going to waste.
Richard Gatling demonstrates his two models of Gatling Gun to the US Army and Navy. The smaller model, firing rifle-calibre bullets, makes a reasonably good impression - his idea that a regiment of 1,000 men could be replaced by forty men operating ten Gatling guns is considered overoptimistic (and his idea that this would reduce the size of armies by 96% is seen as total fantasy) but the ability of the gun to offer continuous fire is seen as a potentially useful feature.
The Navy in particular thinks that, with the recent use of spar-torpedo boats by the Confederacy, a Gatling Gun or two for defence might be useful if a place can be found to put them on an ironclad. (Their use on a Monitor of the current type is seen as impossible, and there are inevitable sacrifices with a casemate ironclad as they would be outside the armour - but an armoured frigate cannot really be fully armoured anyway, so there would be no particular increase in vulnerability.) This would not be to damage the vessel but to drive the crew below decks.
The larger model, firing one-pound shells, is less well recieved. The Navy considers it to be unable to do damage to ironclads or indeed most ships (and as such to offer little in addition over the smaller model), the Army thinks that a one-pound shell is barely worth the effort of firing it, and both are not impressed with the unreliability of the mechanism if forced to try and handle such large shocks of firing.
The US Navy orders two Gatlings for further evaluation, and the Army orders one. All three are of the smaller type.
24 September
King Frederick VII of Denmark has a health scare caused by a rumour about pneumonia, resulting in the debates and arguments about the succession (and the constitution of Schleiswig and Holstein) coming into high gear.
The Schleiswig-Holstein question is already the most complicated matter in Europe - one famous joke by Lord Palmerston states that “Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it" - but the core of the problem is relatively simple. Danish inheritance law differs from that of the duchies of Schleiswig and Holstein, and with King Frederick VII childless the two inheritances are shortly to diverge for the first time in centuries; coupled with this is that there is a gradual increase in German linguistic and cultural dominance as one moves down the Jutland peninsula. The status quo is currently enforced by the London Protocol, which holds that further integration or disintegration of the Danish Federation is to be viewed negatively.
Bismarck is currently grumbling about the marvellous opportunity that may be going to waste.
26 September - 8 October 1863
Saphroneth
Banned
26 September
The HMS Hector goes on sea trials.
She is generally viewed as a slight improvement on the Defence class - her broadside is considerably better than these ships, and she has a complete waterline belt, but she is still not so fast as the larger Warrior and does not compare so favourably to potential enemy ironclads.
The HMS Taurus - a Zodiac-class ironclad - is approved by the Admiralty for purchase by the Bakfu government of Japan. The cost assigned to the sale is considerably more than the cost of the actual ironclad, and in fact would pay for roughly a quarter of the Zodiac program.
The final sale is pending inspection by a trusted retainer of the Japanese Shogun.
29 September
At a meeting in Virginia, Robert E. Lee addresses a large crowd - many of them soldiers or ex-soldiers and more than a few of them men who served under him.
The reaction is generally quite positive.
3 October
A committee on defence determines that the 13 inch Horsfall Gun should be shipped to Pearl Harbour, along with a number of 9.2" Somerset guns. It is also decided that, in light of the mixed effectiveness of submarine explosives in the recent war, the Admiralty should endeavour to develop further both methods of placing explosives, methods of correctly triggering explosives and methods of removing emplaced explosives.
A plan to send a Mallet's Mortar to Pearl is denied, though the decision is made in the affirmative to ship a supply of iron and sufficient furnaces to allow for Martin's Shell fire - on the grounds that most ships that might attack Hawai'i would be wooden or composite construction rather than all-iron or ironclad.
8th October
An offer is made to the Sejm by the Russian government, outlining a set of guarantees of protection for Polish culture and citizens and a separate-but-equal status within the Russian Empire.
Unfortunately, due to a series of mistakes in St. Petersburg the text of the offer is word-for-word identical in many places to the 1815 Constitution. This results in widespread incredulity, followed by anger - the 1815 Constitution is widely viewed in Poland and elsewhere as a deliberate sop which was never fulfilled, and the reminder is distinctly untactful.
Three heavy Krupp rifles (nominally 24 pounders, though their shell weights are rather greater) are smuggled over the border between Moravia and Poland. Their initial source is hard to tell - their serial numbers have all been carefully filed off - and they are christened Sigismund, Wladyslaw and Hedwig by the picked Uhlan (artillerist) company which takes charge of them.
The HMS Hector goes on sea trials.
She is generally viewed as a slight improvement on the Defence class - her broadside is considerably better than these ships, and she has a complete waterline belt, but she is still not so fast as the larger Warrior and does not compare so favourably to potential enemy ironclads.
The HMS Taurus - a Zodiac-class ironclad - is approved by the Admiralty for purchase by the Bakfu government of Japan. The cost assigned to the sale is considerably more than the cost of the actual ironclad, and in fact would pay for roughly a quarter of the Zodiac program.
The final sale is pending inspection by a trusted retainer of the Japanese Shogun.
29 September
At a meeting in Virginia, Robert E. Lee addresses a large crowd - many of them soldiers or ex-soldiers and more than a few of them men who served under him.
The reaction is generally quite positive.
3 October
A committee on defence determines that the 13 inch Horsfall Gun should be shipped to Pearl Harbour, along with a number of 9.2" Somerset guns. It is also decided that, in light of the mixed effectiveness of submarine explosives in the recent war, the Admiralty should endeavour to develop further both methods of placing explosives, methods of correctly triggering explosives and methods of removing emplaced explosives.
A plan to send a Mallet's Mortar to Pearl is denied, though the decision is made in the affirmative to ship a supply of iron and sufficient furnaces to allow for Martin's Shell fire - on the grounds that most ships that might attack Hawai'i would be wooden or composite construction rather than all-iron or ironclad.
8th October
An offer is made to the Sejm by the Russian government, outlining a set of guarantees of protection for Polish culture and citizens and a separate-but-equal status within the Russian Empire.
Unfortunately, due to a series of mistakes in St. Petersburg the text of the offer is word-for-word identical in many places to the 1815 Constitution. This results in widespread incredulity, followed by anger - the 1815 Constitution is widely viewed in Poland and elsewhere as a deliberate sop which was never fulfilled, and the reminder is distinctly untactful.
Three heavy Krupp rifles (nominally 24 pounders, though their shell weights are rather greater) are smuggled over the border between Moravia and Poland. Their initial source is hard to tell - their serial numbers have all been carefully filed off - and they are christened Sigismund, Wladyslaw and Hedwig by the picked Uhlan (artillerist) company which takes charge of them.
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Saphroneth
Banned
Oh, quick question - anyone know what Krupp rifles were around in 1863? I was thinking of it being three Krupp guns instead, but it's harder to track down if there was a ~120mm or larger Krupp gun around by this point.
The 24-pounder version of the C/61 should have a calibre of 5 and 2/3 prussian inches, which translates to 14.8183333 cm. I know the 6-pounder barrels were made by Krupp, so I would assume the others were too.
EDIT: The 12-pounder is with 11.7675 cm just under
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Saphroneth
Banned
Hm. The shell sounds light (the 120mm Armstrong gun was a 40-pounder) but that might just be that the stated poundage is that of a spherical ball of the same calibre for the Krupp weapons. That looks like it might be a winner - given their intended usage, so long as they have an ogival (or similar) headed shell it should work fine.
The weight of the grenades were about 56 and 28 pounds respectively. It's a Zollpfund though, meaning a round 500 grams. So 28 and 14 kg
Saphroneth
Banned
That should be about right, then. Any idea how many of those there were? (Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to make sure this is as sensible as possible - if there were only 20-30 guns then its much easier to track down, but the British by 1863 had 40-lbers for days... but then the Krupp guns were sold to basically anyone, so someone could buy a few through a cut-out for the Poles.)
Sorry, I only know that they had 24 of them at Dybbøl. Of those 24, 8 temporarily broke down. On average these 8 guns fired 810 shots before. They could all be fixed.
They were rifled with 30 grooves and had a range of 5660 meters, after the powder load was adjusted upwards. Before it was 4300 meters.
Also found the true weights. Standard grenades were 27.15 kilos, Shrapnel was 31.15 kilos and the solid shot was 34.7.
(That's all for the 24-pounder)
Saphroneth
Banned
Sounds good, that could mean that anyone accused of having sold them on to the Poles had plausible deniability - indeed, a particularly cunning Danish plan might have been to give the Poles artillery that looked like it came from the Prussians to keep the Russians and Prussians distracted...
Also found images. 66 is the tip, 66a is the grenade. Those are drawings for the 6-pounder but the grenade was also available for the 12 and 24-pounders.
Not sure what you're saying here. I meant that the Prussians hat 24 24-pounders at their attack on the Danes at Dybbøl. I don't know if the Danes had any.
Saphroneth
Banned
Oh, I see - I misunderstood.
Well, presumably Krupp was selling some to other people - or for that matter whoever purchased these ones did so on order and via cut-outs.
I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been. I also have the weight of the guns somewhere, I think but I'm only on mobile right now. Do you want these?
Saphroneth
Banned
I probably have enough info to be going on with - I was mainly concerned as to whether they'd be as good against forts as the Armstrong guns, and it looks from the greater shell weight and calibre like they'll be somewhere between the 40 lber and 110 lber.
I have a book saying that the 24-pounder grenade explodes after penetrating 15' deep into breastworks made from clay soil (without giving distance) and 11' of sand on 1400 paces.
Saphroneth
Banned
Yep, that's the kind of performance that the Armstrong heavies had, and it's easily enough to tear a masonry fort to shreds - the shell actually goes deeply enough into most masonry that it blasts big chunks out of the frontage.
26 September - 1 October 1863
Saphroneth
Banned
26 September
The Act for the Provision of Incentives to Mutual Defence (AKA the Mutual Defence Act) is passed in the Confederate Congress with a substantial majority - this is largely because South Carolina now likes the idea (Charleston still has rubble on the streets, in no small part due to the way that most of the city's labour is currently being processed for settlement in the British Empire). This provides for fairly substantial state-level tax incentives to those states with an effective militia.
The primary result of this is to lead to massive budget fights in future years (as no definition of effective is given) but there is at least a general understanding that states with a militia more capable of quickly taking the field should be better off for it and get more incentives.
27 September
An Ordnance Select Committee in Britain issues a preliminary report on the Armstrong gun. The sense of the report is that the Armstrong gun is inadequately reliable in heavy use and quite costly, but that the performance shown in the late war (paying particular attention to the penetration of the shells into masonry, brickwork and earthwork, and the accuracy and rapidity with which even heavy guns may be fired) more than justifies this expense for the time being.
Examples of anecdotes given in evidence include:
"As regards the care of the gun I find no difficulty in keeping it in perfect order in all weathers and all circumstances" (Major Govan, RA)
"On one occasion his guns had very rough work indeed. They were sent out with a division of the army over a swamp, the very worst ground possible for artillery. The guns were in fact almost swallowed up, and were covered with mud when brought into action, but no impediment occurred." (Major Govan, RA)
"On two occasions vent-pieces were blown away; on the last occasion I happened to come up to the gun almost immediately after it had occurred... The traversing screw was jammed, but the gun was not otherwise injured, and with another vent-piece was again serviceable." (Major Hay, RA)
"When taking action against a fort, I felt confident in the ability of our guns to pierce them... on two occasions the vent-piece failed, but the gun was immediately able to be fired once again after the replacement of this device. The effect of the fire was terrible against a masonry fort of a character that would be absolutely resilient against a gun of the same size from previous wars... we could fire once, then twice more before an enemy gun could be reloaded and directed upon us..." (Lt. Com. Hoskins, Royal Navy, CO of HMS Beaver)
Also brought up to answer the issue of reliability is a test done on 12-lber no.8, where it was left out in the rain for a month and a half before being tested. Firing took place with no problems, despite a lack of any maintenance done in the interim.
The matter of cost is under continued examination, but it is agreed that any weapon that should replace the Armstrong gun for a given scale (e.g. field gun, siege gun) should display an equal or superior quality in rapidity of loading AND cost AND reliability AND accuracy. Armstrong himself notes that he is looking into a developed form of breech, and also that he has produced specialized anti-armour guns but feels that his current breechloaders are serviceable for general purpose.
A cartoon appears in Punch mocking Armstrong, noting that he seems to want to provide the British armed forces with all of their artillery and depicting him as a jeweller telling Brittania that two very different rings - one small and simple, the other with a gemstone the size of her head - are both "her". (This cartoon will later be framed by Armstrong, who finds it rather entertaining)
1 October
An abandoned Russian brick fort in Poland is used for testing and practice with the guns "Sigismund", "Wladyslaw" and "Hedwig". Also present are a number of infantry regiments from the new Polish army, who are being trained for assault tactics - the idea is that their confidence will be boosted when they see the performance of the three powerful breechloaders.
The guns in question do indeed perform well - aiming is a little hard for the Uhlans, who were expecting something with a little less recoil, but the shells go several feet into the brickwork and then blow out huge chunks of it - and morale is noticeably improved among the assault troops. (They have not yet been given an appropriately resonant designation from Polish history, unfortunately - "Lancers" and "Hussars" are both taken.)
The Act for the Provision of Incentives to Mutual Defence (AKA the Mutual Defence Act) is passed in the Confederate Congress with a substantial majority - this is largely because South Carolina now likes the idea (Charleston still has rubble on the streets, in no small part due to the way that most of the city's labour is currently being processed for settlement in the British Empire). This provides for fairly substantial state-level tax incentives to those states with an effective militia.
The primary result of this is to lead to massive budget fights in future years (as no definition of effective is given) but there is at least a general understanding that states with a militia more capable of quickly taking the field should be better off for it and get more incentives.
27 September
An Ordnance Select Committee in Britain issues a preliminary report on the Armstrong gun. The sense of the report is that the Armstrong gun is inadequately reliable in heavy use and quite costly, but that the performance shown in the late war (paying particular attention to the penetration of the shells into masonry, brickwork and earthwork, and the accuracy and rapidity with which even heavy guns may be fired) more than justifies this expense for the time being.
Examples of anecdotes given in evidence include:
"As regards the care of the gun I find no difficulty in keeping it in perfect order in all weathers and all circumstances" (Major Govan, RA)
"On one occasion his guns had very rough work indeed. They were sent out with a division of the army over a swamp, the very worst ground possible for artillery. The guns were in fact almost swallowed up, and were covered with mud when brought into action, but no impediment occurred." (Major Govan, RA)
"On two occasions vent-pieces were blown away; on the last occasion I happened to come up to the gun almost immediately after it had occurred... The traversing screw was jammed, but the gun was not otherwise injured, and with another vent-piece was again serviceable." (Major Hay, RA)
"When taking action against a fort, I felt confident in the ability of our guns to pierce them... on two occasions the vent-piece failed, but the gun was immediately able to be fired once again after the replacement of this device. The effect of the fire was terrible against a masonry fort of a character that would be absolutely resilient against a gun of the same size from previous wars... we could fire once, then twice more before an enemy gun could be reloaded and directed upon us..." (Lt. Com. Hoskins, Royal Navy, CO of HMS Beaver)
Also brought up to answer the issue of reliability is a test done on 12-lber no.8, where it was left out in the rain for a month and a half before being tested. Firing took place with no problems, despite a lack of any maintenance done in the interim.
The matter of cost is under continued examination, but it is agreed that any weapon that should replace the Armstrong gun for a given scale (e.g. field gun, siege gun) should display an equal or superior quality in rapidity of loading AND cost AND reliability AND accuracy. Armstrong himself notes that he is looking into a developed form of breech, and also that he has produced specialized anti-armour guns but feels that his current breechloaders are serviceable for general purpose.
A cartoon appears in Punch mocking Armstrong, noting that he seems to want to provide the British armed forces with all of their artillery and depicting him as a jeweller telling Brittania that two very different rings - one small and simple, the other with a gemstone the size of her head - are both "her". (This cartoon will later be framed by Armstrong, who finds it rather entertaining)
1 October
An abandoned Russian brick fort in Poland is used for testing and practice with the guns "Sigismund", "Wladyslaw" and "Hedwig". Also present are a number of infantry regiments from the new Polish army, who are being trained for assault tactics - the idea is that their confidence will be boosted when they see the performance of the three powerful breechloaders.
The guns in question do indeed perform well - aiming is a little hard for the Uhlans, who were expecting something with a little less recoil, but the shells go several feet into the brickwork and then blow out huge chunks of it - and morale is noticeably improved among the assault troops. (They have not yet been given an appropriately resonant designation from Polish history, unfortunately - "Lancers" and "Hussars" are both taken.)