If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)

[Captain Seafort]

Whoops!

The times do rather change, don't they... the choice is basically for me to change it to "died of wounds some time later", make the action non-fatal or to make the medal "honorary" in having it noted in Gazette.

Another solution may be to have it be one of the batch of posthumous awards made in 1907 for such notes, with a change to the initial wording to "[name, unit] would have been recommended to Her Majesty for the decoration of the Victoria Cross had he survived", and maybe an "historian's comment" that the award didn't actually come for almost fifty years.

 

[edgeworthy]

It's still early days for the medal, so it's by no means impossible for the rules to change if it becomes patent that something isn't working right. There was at least some demand that Indian troops (or rather, Indian civilians) receive appropriate recognition:

'not only the officers' servants, but the followers belonging to European regiments, such as cook-boys, saices and bhisties (water-carriers), as a rule, behaved in the most praiseworthy manner, faithful and brave to a degree. So much was this the case, that when the troopers of the 9th Lancers were called upon to name the man they considered most worthy of the Victoria Cross, an honour which Sir Colin Campbell purposed to confer on the regiment to mark his appreciation of the gallantry displayed by all ranks during the campaign, they unanimously chose the head bhistie!' ('Forty-one years in India,' Roberts; whether this is apocryphal or not I'm not sure, but the 9th Lancers did hand four VCs out at Delhi- one officer, one sergeant and two ORs, just as the ballot requirements stipulate)

"Tho' I've belted you and flayed you,
By the livin' Gawd that made you,
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!”

It seems appropriate?

Spoiler

GUNGA DIN

You may talk o' gin and beer
When you're quartered safe out 'ere,
An' you're sent to penny-fights an' Aldershot it;
But when it comes to slaughter
You will do your work on water,
An' you'll lick the bloomin' boots of 'im that's got it.
Now in Injia's sunny clime,
Where I used to spend my time
A-servin' of 'Er Majesty the Queen,
Of all them black-faced crew
The finest man I knew
Was our regimental bhisti, Gunga Din.
He was "Din! Din! Din!
You limping lump o' brick-dust, Gunga Din!
Hi! slippery hitherao!
Water, get it! Panee lao!
You squigy-nosed old idol, Gunga Din."


The uniform 'e wore
Was nothin' much before,
An' rather less than 'arf o' that be'ind,
For a piece o' twisty rag
An' a goatskin water-bag
Was all the field-equipment e' could find.
When the sweatin' troop-train lay
In a sidin' through the day,
Where the 'eat would make your bloomin' eyebrows crawl,
We shouted "Harry By!"
Till our throats were bricky-dry,
Then we wopped 'im 'cause 'e couldn't serve us all.
It was "Din! Din! Din!
You 'eathen, where the mischief 'ave you been?
You put some juldee in it
Or I'll marrow you this minute
If you don't fill up my helmet, Gunga Din!


'E would dot an' carry one
Till the longest day was done
An' 'e didn't seem to know the use o' fear.
If we charged or broke or cut,
You could bet your bloomin' nut,
'E'd be waitin' fifty paces right flank rear.
With 'is mussick on 'is back,
'E would skip with our attack,
An' watch us till the bugles made "Retire,"
An' for all 'is dirty 'ide
'E was white, clear white, inside
When 'e went to tend the wounded under fire!
It was "Din! Din! Din!"
With the bullets kickin' dust-spots on the green.
When the cartridges ran out,
You could hear the front-files shout,
"Hi! ammunition-mules an' Gunga Din!"


I sha'n't forgit the night
When I dropped be'ind the fight
With a bullet where my belt plate should 'a' been.
I was chokin' mad with thirst,
An' the man that spied me first
Was our good old grinnin', gruntin' Gunga Din.
'E lifted up my 'ead,
An' he plugged me where I bled,
An' 'e guv me 'arf-a-pint o' water-green:
It was crawlin' and it stunk,
But of all the drinks I've drunk,
I'm gratefullest to one from Gunga Din.
It was "Din! Din! Din!"
'Ere's a beggar with a bullet through 'is spleen;
'E's chawin' up the ground,
An' 'e's kickin' all around:
For Gawd's sake git the water, Gunga Din!



'E carried me away
To where a dooli lay,
An' a bullet come an' drilled the beggar clean.
'E put me safe inside,
An' just before 'e died:
"I 'ope you liked your drink," sez Gunga Din.
So I'll meet 'im later on
At the place where 'e is gone—
Where it's always double drill and no canteen;
'E'll be squattin' on the coals,
Givin' drink to poor damned souls,
An' I'll get a swig in hell from Gunga Din!
Yes, Din! Din! Din!
You Lazarushian-leather Gunga Din!
Though I've belted you and flayed you,
By the living Gawd that made you,
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

 

[Donald Reaver]

Getting the Indian troops on the Empires side by recognizing their sacrifices may be a cynical way of them getting proper recognition, but a added reason to any movement to do so. At this point in time perhaps the best chance for a p.o.d. if one wants to change the history between the U.K. and India.

 

[Saphroneth]

Getting the Indian troops on the Empires side by recognizing their sacrifices may be a cynical way of them getting proper recognition, but a added reason to any movement to do so. At this point in time perhaps the best chance for a p.o.d. if one wants to change the history between the U.K. and India.

I've got more than one strand of thought about what happens to the Empire in the offing.

It seems appropriate?

Kipling will not exist TTL, or at least if someone called Rudyard Kipling does exist he will not write the same poems.
That does not, however, mean there won't be some other poet who similarly touches hearts and captures the attitude of the army man in India, or on the North-West Frontier, or elsewhere.

ATL culture is probably the hardest side of what we discuss on this site, because a realistic appreciation of it would require the TL author (yours truly) to come up with the entire corpus of literature for the time period, again, independently, and different.

I may write an unreasonably popular Pokemon fanfic, but I'm not as creative as the entire planet was over a period of several decades.

 

[FriendlyGhost]

Kipling will not exist TTL...
ATL culture is probably the hardest side of what we discuss on this site, because a realistic appreciation of it would require the TL author (yours truly) to come up with the entire corpus of literature for the time period, again, independently, and different.
...I'm not as creative as the entire planet was over a period of several decades.

I don't think anyone here would object if you decided to use some OTL literature/poetry/whatever and just change the name/background of TTL author. As you say, you can't be expected to deal with all the butterflies, so I suggest (if you need such quotations) just to pretend that the butterfly which prevented Kipling from existing also inspired, for example, a Brit in India called 'Robert McEwan' to write a series of popular poems including one called 'Gunga Din'.
Alternatively, just make up the titles and authors, leaving the contents to readers' imaginations.

 

[Avarice]

I just had a thought, and after checking the dates the purchase of Alaska has been rather derailed ITTL.
I wonder if the US could justify such a purchase in their current situation and whether or not the British would reevaluate their interest?
Would Russia be willing to actually sell to the British when they are the principal reason Russia believe they need to sell in the first place?
What about the Confederacy?

 

[Saphroneth]

24 Mar

One of the transport ships containing troops from the California Campaign stops off at Hong Kong, ready in case the Namagumi Incident becomes a larger deal than it currently is.

27 Mar

Last Union troops march out of the Washington DC area. They have taken everything that is considered Federal property, or private property of people relocating north, and set at least one fort on fire (though this was not official policy).


28 Mar

The Treaty of Havana officially activates.
Within hours, a major legal wrangle has begun over the city of Cairo, southern Illinois - the matter turns on the precise definition of the US-CS border and the precise position of the city.
The text of the treaty states:
The border will be the Ohio River from this point to the confluence with the Mississippi, which will then be the border downriver until the 37th Parallel.
The border shall then continue westwards from this point to the 114th line of longitude, at which point the border will follow this line until the 36th Parallel, which shall be the border from here to the Pacific.

Causing the problem is that the confluence between the Mississippi and the Ohio is one and a half miles south of the 37th Parallel - as such, the southern section of the city of Cairo, as well as Fort Defiance, are below the 37th Parallel and in what can be reasonably termed a legal grey area.
The Confederate interpretation is that the border should be taken as the 37th Parallel from the point the Ohio intersects it; the Union interpretation is that the border should travel down the Ohio and then upriver along the Mississippi to the 37th Parallel. Needless to say, neither precisely matches the text of the treaty, a matter firmly complicated by some prominent public figures from the area of Southern Illinois choosing now to advance their opinion that - due to the cultural similarity between the Confederate States and the area of Illinois known as 'Little Egypt' -the whole southern third of the state should secede and join the Confederacy.

There is much suing.


31 Mar

Palmerston explains his interpretation of the course of events to Cabinet, explaining why he wishes to take the matter of the Spirit of Carolina to the Admiralty courts - if the case is strong there will be legal precedent, while if the case is weak then the Government can disavow Bythesea's actions in seizing the Spirit based on the timing of the event... while neither returning the freed slaves, nor abandoning the principle that the Confederacy is bound by Right of Search in actuality, nor even punishing the now-popular Bythesea.


4 April

Somewhat disorganized elections held in Poland, forming something resembling a Sejm with two broad and ill-defined parties (essentially Whites and Reds). The members are agreed on the need to avoid resurrecting the Liberum Veto - perhaps ironically, this is unanimous - but not much else.
One proposal floated by a faction of the Reds, and which begins to gain traction, is to at one and the same time confirm that "only Szlachta (nobles) may vote" and that "peasants will be granted the land they work" - due to the slightly odd traditions of Polish nobility, this would essentially ennoble the entire peasantry without actually diverting from the historical way the Polish government operated.

At this point Lithuanians are not holding elections for a government so much as for who is to lead their particular rebel band.

 

[Saphroneth]

I just had a thought, and after checking the dates the purchase of Alaska has been rather derailed ITTL.
I wonder if the US could justify such a purchase in their current situation and whether or not the British would reevaluate their interest?
Would Russia be willing to actually sell to the British when they are the principal reason Russia believe they need to sell in the first place?
What about the Confederacy?

Not sure - Russia has bigger problems at the moment.

They might even decide to sell it to someone not especially major who can give them a good price for it. I could theoretically see them selling to Spain, France, Mexico, Britain, the Confederates, the Union, Sweden, Italy, Prussia, Austria, Japan or China, depending on how ticked off they were at the time.

 

[Thoresby]

Not sure - Russia has bigger problems at the moment.

They might even decide to sell it to someone not especially major who can give them a good price for it. I could theoretically see them selling to Spain, France, Mexico, Britain, the Confederates, the Union, Sweden, Italy, Prussia, Austria, Japan or China, depending on how ticked off they were at the time.

Would a 3rd rate power like Sweden or Italy with no Pacific holdings even want Alaska? The only places that would want Alaska and could afford to pay for it are Britain and the USA. Even the CSA probably wouldn't want a land where slavery is never going to be viable. Also on the names issue I think citizens of the CSA will be known as Confederates, possibly shortened to Cons if you're being rude with Southerners maybe being used elsewhere in North America and maybe Rebs by especially bitter people in the USA. Citizens of the USA will probably be known as Unionists plus Yanks/Yankees outside the USA. Southerners might also call them Northerners.

 

[Saphroneth]

Would a 3rd rate power like Sweden or Italy with no Pacific holdings even want Alaska? The only places that would want Alaska and could afford to pay for it are Britain and the USA. Even the CSA probably wouldn't want a land where slavery is never going to be viable.

That was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I'll admit.
But I could see the Russians wanting to sell to Japan if they hold off for long enough (i.e. long enough Japan can actually make a credible offer) or to Mexico if France is willing to pay. The other options are the British (Canada from the Maritimes to Beringa) and the Yanks (sort of OTL, though getting a loan would be odd and Seward's political capital is a bit crap.)

 

[Skallagrim]

That was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I'll admit.
But I could see the Russians wanting to sell to Japan if they hold off for long enough (i.e. long enough Japan can actually make a credible offer) or to Mexico if France is willing to pay. The other options are the British (Canada from the Maritimes to Beringa) and the Yanks (sort of OTL, though getting a loan would be odd and Seward's political capital is a bit crap.)

The very idea of the Union buying it, given the current situation, will likely prompt the British to make the Russians a better offer.

 

[RodentRevolution]

The very idea of the Union buying it, given the current situation, will likely prompt the British to make the Russians a better offer.

Not sure about that. The reason Britain did not join in the bidding OTL was they were not that interested. Also the new United States is quite possibly seen as less of a threat having just actually experienced what war with Britain is actually like and been freed of the slave states with their bunch of insanely belligerent warmongers.

 

[FriendlyGhost]

I wonder what would happen if the USA were to buy Alaska using money from a British loan, only to default on the loan. Britain might then end up with Alaska by default. Alternatively, the USA could be struggling to pay back the loan and offer it to Britain for some more money, thus gaining some useful capital. This is the age of land changing hands for silly money (sometimes silly high, sometimes silly low) so basically anything is possible if the politicians and money-brokers want it enough.

 

[Saphroneth]

I wonder what would happen if the USA were to buy Alaska using money from a British loan, only to default on the loan. Britain might then end up with Alaska by default. Alternatively, the USA could be struggling to pay back the loan and offer it to Britain for some more money, thus gaining some useful capital. This is the age of land changing hands for silly money (sometimes silly high, sometimes silly low) so basically anything is possible if the politicians and money-brokers want it enough.

"And, in a complicated bit of financial dealings that nodody understands, Alaska is now Swiss America."

 

[Skallagrim]

Not sure about that. The reason Britain did not join in the bidding OTL was they were not that interested. Also the new United States is quite possibly seen as less of a threat having just actually experienced what war with Britain is actually like and been freed of the slave states with their bunch of insanely belligerent warmongers.

Potentially true, but even though I really think relations will soon normalise, public sentiment in the USA is likely to be vocally (but only vocally) anti-British for the near future. One of the reasons the British thought it opportune to let the the southern USA be separated was because this would reduce the threat to their own North American holdings. But at this point, it is unclear whether the USA is going to actually be revanchist or not. We, readers of this thread, mostly think it's unlikely. But the British at this point in the TL are possibly less confident. They'd likely want to keep the USA from owning more land adjacent to their own... unless it becomes clear very soon that revanchism isn't going to be a big thing.

In that latter case, the British might well financially aid the USA (via loans) in buying Alaska, as a gesture of reconciliation. (Since gaining land would help restore USA pride, probably.)

So depending on the way things go in the near future, this could go both ways...

 

[Fabius Maximus]

"And, in a complicated bit of financial dealings that nodody understands, Alaska is now Swiss America."

You need to include this in your TL. Pretty please?

 

[Saphroneth]

You need to include this in your TL. Pretty please?

Hm, let's see...

Spoiler

So Seward decides to buy Alaska making the deal in a hurry to avoid the British getting it, but he has trouble securing a loan, and he has to get the money from the Rothschilds. But the Rothschilds were expecting to be paid back by the American government, who say "sod that we need veterans money" and don't pay. So the Rothschilds find themselves about to repossess Alaska, and with debts of their own to pay off they use the rights to that section of America for collateral on a deal which falls through, which was with the Swiss Banks. So Switzerland has Alaska, takes one look at it, and sells it to the French - or specifically Napoleon III, who then sells it on in turn to Maximilian III in return for collecting on the silver mines for a year or so. Maximilian takes the deal because the silver mines in question are currently ankle deep in Republican Mexicans, and when the dust settles nobody's quite sure what's happened but the Yukon is now Hispanic.

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

LOVE the Spoiler

 

[Starfox5]

While I'm not certain if the Swiss Banks had the money to bankroll such a loan as mentioned back then, the links to Napoleon III certainly were there - Napoleon III was a Swiss citizen. Switzerland almost got in a war when they didn't want to surrender him to France after his failed coup. Probably the only Swiss who was an Emperor.

 

[RPW@Cy]

Kipling will not exist TTL, or at least if someone called Rudyard Kipling does exist he will not write the same poems.

If it helps, I think you have to assume some pretty aggressive butterflies to wipe Rudyard out of existence - he was born in December 1865 in Bombay to John Lockwood Kipling and Alice MacDonald who had married in March of the same year and named him after the lake in Staffordshire where they met. So basically I think unless you assume butterflies prevent either his parents from meeting at all (and I can't find a date for when that happened so am not sure if it's pre- or post-POD) or JLK being offered a professorship at the Sir Jamsetjee Jeejebhoy School of Art, then somebody called Rudyard Kipling is likely to be born and grow up in India in the late 1860's. He doesn't have to be a poet and writer of course.