If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)
- Thread starter Saphroneth
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Saphroneth
Banned
St. Pierre and Miquelon, I believe.
Because the CSA is often caricatured as being the "racist, evil" side of the Civil War.
RodentRevolution
Banned
Typecast...they were racist and evil, all the good manners in the world and every other gripe and gram of truth cannot take away from the fact they made being evil the whole raison d'etre of the Confederacy. Exploiting the Indian Territory Native Americans for Confederate strategic advantage does not shift the dial off of evil so much as a flicker.
Hell the North was racist as hell too but they did not get stuck on keeping slavery.
Saphroneth
Banned
That's just it - if the Confederacy was exploiting the Indian Territory's inhabitants for strategic advantages then they wouldn't have needed to go nearly so far as they did OTL in providing them benefits. Maybe that's just one person who the rest were unwilling to lose face by gainsaying, but it still points to how the Confederacy was not monolithic.
It contained all sorts of attitudes, from "likes slavery" to "does not care about slavery" to "willing to go along with slavery" - in other words, the full spectrum of the Roman world. ("Anti slavery" - not so much, at least openly.)
And, just in case it's not completely clear, my praise for the Confederacy in this specific matter is me talking with my 'judge the past by the past' glasses firmly on.
On the matter of rights for Indians, the Union comes rather worse off - and the Confederacy is, frankly, surprisingly liberal.
On the matter of black Americans (born or transplanted) the relationship is emphatically reversed - indeed, the disparity is on track to become considerably greater than even OTL because once the South is separated from the North there's no really strong factors left to keep the North anything other than enlightened and anti-racist - in fact, there'll be strong factors forcing them to become as little like the Confederacy as possible.
It contained all sorts of attitudes, from "likes slavery" to "does not care about slavery" to "willing to go along with slavery" - in other words, the full spectrum of the Roman world. ("Anti slavery" - not so much, at least openly.)
And, just in case it's not completely clear, my praise for the Confederacy in this specific matter is me talking with my 'judge the past by the past' glasses firmly on.
On the matter of rights for Indians, the Union comes rather worse off - and the Confederacy is, frankly, surprisingly liberal.
On the matter of black Americans (born or transplanted) the relationship is emphatically reversed - indeed, the disparity is on track to become considerably greater than even OTL because once the South is separated from the North there's no really strong factors left to keep the North anything other than enlightened and anti-racist - in fact, there'll be strong factors forcing them to become as little like the Confederacy as possible.
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Saphroneth
Banned
But anyway. Plans for the next update.
Union furloughs of large numbers of troops to save money.
Incident involving a privately owned ship which tries to leave NY, and which attempts a ram on the Liffey when she's told to heave-to. NY mayor Wood uses the incident for political capital.
Unrest in Poland - nothing major yet. (OTL.)
Also unrest in Maryland again.
Plebiscite in Mexico.
Something involving a black slave swimming to the Immortalite from Gosport.
And the terms of the St Lawrence cession have been hammered out. There has also been suggested a working border for the discussions of the west to operate on, which is the 37th parallel north at least up to the Great Divide and possibly the 36th parallel west of that.
Incident involving a privately owned ship which tries to leave NY, and which attempts a ram on the Liffey when she's told to heave-to. NY mayor Wood uses the incident for political capital.
Unrest in Poland - nothing major yet. (OTL.)
Also unrest in Maryland again.
Plebiscite in Mexico.
Something involving a black slave swimming to the Immortalite from Gosport.
And the terms of the St Lawrence cession have been hammered out. There has also been suggested a working border for the discussions of the west to operate on, which is the 37th parallel north at least up to the Great Divide and possibly the 36th parallel west of that.
Skallagrim
Banned
This TL is really fun to read in that it does away with some preconceived notions and, indeed, caricatures. (For the most part military-related ones, but it's fun to see it applied in other fields as well.)
In my experience, in most Civil War-related timelines, it usually ends up with the CSA somehow being "whitewashed" and the USA treated as overbearing and arrogant, or with the CSA being "literally Hitler" and the USA somehow being a noble nation of pure souls who did it all to stop slavery. (The political motivations of the authors in question need not be guessed at.)
Nice to see something more realistic. For the record, it's happened countless times throughout history that a regime was utterly racist to certain groups, but not to other ones. It's completely realistic for the CSA to end up being more friendly towards Native Americans than the USA in this TL... and still be a racist regime.
I haven't seen a source, but it's been said that Hitler had a special excemption for Native Americans in his racist ideology since he was a big fan of Karl May's books (Author of "Winnetou").
The whole POINT of racism is that you treat groups differently. If you treat everyone awfully you are not a racist asshole, just a generic asshole.
Ok, it usually is "only my group is real people", but it can easily also be "that one group is not real people, but everyone else is". It's only the blacks that the Confederates _have_ to dehumanize.
Ok, it usually is "only my group is real people", but it can easily also be "that one group is not real people, but everyone else is". It's only the blacks that the Confederates _have_ to dehumanize.
14-23 September 1862
Saphroneth
Banned
14 September
Large numbers of Union troops are put on furlough home. This is largely a money saving measure - the Union economy is under severe stress, and not only are these men grumbling about low - and devalued - pay, but they are also needed at home being productive in the first place. (Grain being the Union's main money export at the moment.)
The choice of troops to send home may or may not be influenced by their partisan leanings. Certainly some generals have tried to get a sense for the party loyalties of their men, though none of this has taken place in the armies of either Grant or McClellan.
15 September
Vanderbilt daringly stops off at Athens to check on the news, and the captain is somewhat disquieted to discover that there has been an armistice in place in the Trent war for two and a half months.
(In retrospect, he does remember that the crew of the coal ship he captured seemed especially outraged...)
Discussion takes place overnight about the best course of action, as some among the bridge crew fear that they are now technically guilty of piracy. In the end, the decision is made to head to a neutral port - and one of the few powers they are both confident of reaching and confident of being in the good graces of is Russia.
The 37th parallel enters the discussion at Havana. It is a proposed northern border for the Confederacy in the trans-Mississippi, though if this line is extended all the way to the Pacific it is in fact slightly north of the proposed Confederate State of Colorado (southern California) which had petitioned overwhelmingly pre-war to be split into a separate state.
17 September
Billy, a slave working at the Gosport Naval Yard, makes a two-mile swim under cover of evening to reach the Royal Navy frigate Immortalite.
Over the next few days, the Virginian local authorities will attempt to secure his return; the only reply by Captain George Hancock (and the post captain of the Chesapeake Bay squadron) is a resonding no. (Virginian accusations that the Chesapeake squadron starts operating closer to the shore in subsequent weeks are difficult to prove.)
Billy will later take the surname Hancock. While still technically a slave while on board Immortalite, he is sent across to the next ship to head to Bermuda and is thus emancipated within about a week of his swim.
18 September
A clandestine meeting in London takes place, coordinating planned activities by groups in the area of Russia that was annexed in the Partitions of Poland (and Lithuania). Two factions are present - the Whites and the Reds.
Broadly, the Reds want an armed uprising against Russia to re-establish Poland, and they want the end of serfdom, and dislike the idea of compensating landlords, while the Whites want the end of Serfdom but would prefer compensation for landlords and are ambivalent about the idea of an armed uprising against Russia - preferring to win over diplomatic support.
The idea is floated of getting assistance from King Frederick III of Prussia, though the Reds reject this at first - it takes the arguments of one White faction member to point out that armed uprising is pointless without actual weapons, and further that the whole reason agitation is taking place is the opposition to conscription - thus, by definition, those who feel most strongly about the immediate issues are unarmed and untrained.
In an attempt to gain commonality between the two sides, Zamoyski undertakes to purchase several thousand good rifles under the cover of being a purchasing agent for the Confederacy - this is itself intended to appear as a cover for the job of purchasing agent of the Union if the person he is speaking to at the time is suspicious about his credentials, unless they are a British official in which case he will attempt to appear to be what he is pretending to be rather than to appear to be someone pretending to be someone else. (His description leads to much head scratching.)
19 September
The results of the Mexican Plebiscite are in, with a substantial majority reported for Maximilien; as such a packet steamer is sent to convey the news to France and thence to Austria.
Vanderbilt transits the Bosphoros.
21 September
A privately owned vessel, the Steamcloud, attempts to exit New York. As Liffey orders her to heave to, the paddle steamer instead accelerates and comes close to ramming the British frigate.
Steamcloud is stopped by shell fire from two gunboats and the Liffey disabling her paddle boxes, and the incident becomes an ongoing issue. In particular, Mayor Wood uses it as a key rhetorical point - stressing his opposition to the Trent war and to the Civil War, lambasting the government in Washington for letting this state of blockade continue, and indeed blaming them for everything up to and including malfeasance of duty and embezzlement (he asks how many of his audience believe that as much tax money as the Government took in, they should have had an actual functional navy!)
22 September
In the early hours of the morning, Vanderbilt docks at Sevastopol. Now on safe ground, the captain writes a letter to Lloyds of London explaining where the missing merchant ship is - still on an uninhabited Cycladean island.
Also on this date, rioting takes place in Annapolis - some shouting that the parole camps should be emptied with the armistice, others demanding the state be transferred to the Confederacy. Much reference is made to the Continental Congress and the Annapolis Convention.
Troops manage to keep a lid on the situation without any deaths, though at one point a serious attempt is made to incite a massacre - the protestors in question trying to invoke echoes of the Boston Massacre by harranguing a sentry, throwing objects and insults. (The troops avoid reacting with force, though it is reportedly a near thing.)
Interestingly, prints very reminiscent of Revere's famous engraving (with the colours changed and a Maryland backdrop) are found in stacks in a basement - this is one reason it is believed the whole incident with the sentry was planned from the start.
23 September
Palmerston gives an impassioned speech at Portsmouth in defence of the Royal Commission on the Defence of the United Kingdom, of which he was a key member. He uses the events of the Trent War as his example, pointing out how expensive the North America and West Indies squadron is and how long it took to defeat the forts of Hampton Roads as positives - as the forts were (as he explains) poorly built, then a well built fort system would buy the Royal Navy precious days to concentrate and to defend the attacked port instead of merely letting the navy be destroyed at anchor. ("The only way that any enemy may destroy our fleets in their full force").
He allows that the fort network is expensive, but uses it mainly to pivot to the point that a destroyed London Docks, a destroyed Portsmouth Royal Dockyards, a destroyed Liverpool or Bristol or Edinburgh or Dublin or Cardiff, is far worse than the mere expense of being up to date with modern weapons.
Large numbers of Union troops are put on furlough home. This is largely a money saving measure - the Union economy is under severe stress, and not only are these men grumbling about low - and devalued - pay, but they are also needed at home being productive in the first place. (Grain being the Union's main money export at the moment.)
The choice of troops to send home may or may not be influenced by their partisan leanings. Certainly some generals have tried to get a sense for the party loyalties of their men, though none of this has taken place in the armies of either Grant or McClellan.
15 September
Vanderbilt daringly stops off at Athens to check on the news, and the captain is somewhat disquieted to discover that there has been an armistice in place in the Trent war for two and a half months.
(In retrospect, he does remember that the crew of the coal ship he captured seemed especially outraged...)
Discussion takes place overnight about the best course of action, as some among the bridge crew fear that they are now technically guilty of piracy. In the end, the decision is made to head to a neutral port - and one of the few powers they are both confident of reaching and confident of being in the good graces of is Russia.
The 37th parallel enters the discussion at Havana. It is a proposed northern border for the Confederacy in the trans-Mississippi, though if this line is extended all the way to the Pacific it is in fact slightly north of the proposed Confederate State of Colorado (southern California) which had petitioned overwhelmingly pre-war to be split into a separate state.
17 September
Billy, a slave working at the Gosport Naval Yard, makes a two-mile swim under cover of evening to reach the Royal Navy frigate Immortalite.
Over the next few days, the Virginian local authorities will attempt to secure his return; the only reply by Captain George Hancock (and the post captain of the Chesapeake Bay squadron) is a resonding no. (Virginian accusations that the Chesapeake squadron starts operating closer to the shore in subsequent weeks are difficult to prove.)
Billy will later take the surname Hancock. While still technically a slave while on board Immortalite, he is sent across to the next ship to head to Bermuda and is thus emancipated within about a week of his swim.
18 September
A clandestine meeting in London takes place, coordinating planned activities by groups in the area of Russia that was annexed in the Partitions of Poland (and Lithuania). Two factions are present - the Whites and the Reds.
Broadly, the Reds want an armed uprising against Russia to re-establish Poland, and they want the end of serfdom, and dislike the idea of compensating landlords, while the Whites want the end of Serfdom but would prefer compensation for landlords and are ambivalent about the idea of an armed uprising against Russia - preferring to win over diplomatic support.
The idea is floated of getting assistance from King Frederick III of Prussia, though the Reds reject this at first - it takes the arguments of one White faction member to point out that armed uprising is pointless without actual weapons, and further that the whole reason agitation is taking place is the opposition to conscription - thus, by definition, those who feel most strongly about the immediate issues are unarmed and untrained.
In an attempt to gain commonality between the two sides, Zamoyski undertakes to purchase several thousand good rifles under the cover of being a purchasing agent for the Confederacy - this is itself intended to appear as a cover for the job of purchasing agent of the Union if the person he is speaking to at the time is suspicious about his credentials, unless they are a British official in which case he will attempt to appear to be what he is pretending to be rather than to appear to be someone pretending to be someone else. (His description leads to much head scratching.)
19 September
The results of the Mexican Plebiscite are in, with a substantial majority reported for Maximilien; as such a packet steamer is sent to convey the news to France and thence to Austria.
Vanderbilt transits the Bosphoros.
21 September
A privately owned vessel, the Steamcloud, attempts to exit New York. As Liffey orders her to heave to, the paddle steamer instead accelerates and comes close to ramming the British frigate.
Steamcloud is stopped by shell fire from two gunboats and the Liffey disabling her paddle boxes, and the incident becomes an ongoing issue. In particular, Mayor Wood uses it as a key rhetorical point - stressing his opposition to the Trent war and to the Civil War, lambasting the government in Washington for letting this state of blockade continue, and indeed blaming them for everything up to and including malfeasance of duty and embezzlement (he asks how many of his audience believe that as much tax money as the Government took in, they should have had an actual functional navy!)
22 September
In the early hours of the morning, Vanderbilt docks at Sevastopol. Now on safe ground, the captain writes a letter to Lloyds of London explaining where the missing merchant ship is - still on an uninhabited Cycladean island.
Also on this date, rioting takes place in Annapolis - some shouting that the parole camps should be emptied with the armistice, others demanding the state be transferred to the Confederacy. Much reference is made to the Continental Congress and the Annapolis Convention.
Troops manage to keep a lid on the situation without any deaths, though at one point a serious attempt is made to incite a massacre - the protestors in question trying to invoke echoes of the Boston Massacre by harranguing a sentry, throwing objects and insults. (The troops avoid reacting with force, though it is reportedly a near thing.)
Interestingly, prints very reminiscent of Revere's famous engraving (with the colours changed and a Maryland backdrop) are found in stacks in a basement - this is one reason it is believed the whole incident with the sentry was planned from the start.
23 September
Palmerston gives an impassioned speech at Portsmouth in defence of the Royal Commission on the Defence of the United Kingdom, of which he was a key member. He uses the events of the Trent War as his example, pointing out how expensive the North America and West Indies squadron is and how long it took to defeat the forts of Hampton Roads as positives - as the forts were (as he explains) poorly built, then a well built fort system would buy the Royal Navy precious days to concentrate and to defend the attacked port instead of merely letting the navy be destroyed at anchor. ("The only way that any enemy may destroy our fleets in their full force").
He allows that the fort network is expensive, but uses it mainly to pivot to the point that a destroyed London Docks, a destroyed Portsmouth Royal Dockyards, a destroyed Liverpool or Bristol or Edinburgh or Dublin or Cardiff, is far worse than the mere expense of being up to date with modern weapons.
And thus, the Rampage of Vanderbilt comes to end. Presumably.
I presume that Palmerston has a point?
I presume that Palmerston has a point?
Saphroneth
Banned
Basically, he was behind the Palmerston Forts (it's in the name) and so he's using the recent events in the US as part of his political rhetoric in support of the idea of modern forts (Stressing the "modern") being highly useful.
Saphroneth
Banned
Palmerston was quite a character. You know that there was an attempted slander of him in 1863 (i.e. when he was seventy nine) that he was sleeping around? (Better yet, the reaction of the public was 'oh, that Palmerston, what a card'.)He's being forthright that he was fort right
Saphroneth
Banned
Okay, so, zooming out for a bit.
Apart from Mexico, which is going to be quite ATL here, there's a few major events of the early 1860s - the Polish Crisis (which may well be different TTL due to Frederick III), the Schleiswig-Holstein crisis (also different TTL) and... something else...
The Taiping Rebellion is still going on, too, though it's approaching the denouement.
Apart from Mexico, which is going to be quite ATL here, there's a few major events of the early 1860s - the Polish Crisis (which may well be different TTL due to Frederick III), the Schleiswig-Holstein crisis (also different TTL) and... something else...
The Taiping Rebellion is still going on, too, though it's approaching the denouement.
Admiralty internal memo, 1862
Saphroneth
Banned
Admiralty internal memo from late 1862
On the lessons of the American War and related events
On Strategy
Blockading is and remains an effective economic weapon.
When a foreign power has a large navy, an early step in the blockade is to pin as many vessels as possible in port.
Identification of major ports is essential, and the blockade should start with the most important ports first.
Ships of the corvette class are important for blockading work and for escort through enemy commerce raiding.
When blockading an area containing shipyards, provision should be made of at least one heavy ship of force for each shipyard, with a minimum of one spare vessel in case of rotation. This should be in addition to the normal estimates of force required. Ironclads are desired if possible, and it should be endeavoured that the dispatch of such ships of force not harm the defence of the United Kingdom or her colonies.
Commerce raiding has become less effective against steam vessels. Convoy should only be considered for vital cargoes.
The telegraph should be extended from the United Kingdom to Halifax as soon as possible.
The canals of Canada should be expanded. Alternative routes should be provided if possible.
Sail is still vital for ships expected to cruise.
On Defences
Reduction of fortifications offers greatly increased freedom of action in maintaining a blockade.
Fortifications not of the most modern type are easily reduced by ships with modern weapons. All our own forts should be built with room for growth in weapons and armour.
Small harbour defence ironclads are highly useful as they restrict the freedom of an attacker to reduce forts.
Forts should be able to prevent the entry of shells fired from any range their own guns cannot successfully command.
Mine belts are useful, but degrade quickly when submerged.
On Present Weapons
The smooth-bore cannon armed with shot is not effective against enemy ships, except at close range; exception is made for the 68-lber and 100-lber, which are high velocity weapons able to effectively pierce most modern armour.
Smooth-bore cannon armed with shell are able to do progressive damage to enemy ships.
Light wooden ships are much more vulnerable than heavy wooden ships to both shells and shot.
The contact fuze is far superior to the time fuze for shells.
All ships should carry some armour penetrating shells or shot for their heaviest guns.
The breech loading rifle is effective against wooden and unarmoured vessels at very long range.
The breech loading rifle is ineffective against armour due to the small size of the charge.
The breech loading rifle is extremely effective against fortifications of the current type.
The Martin's Shell is very effective when used on a wooden target.
On Future Building
The wooden ship is still useful, but is no longer a primary battle-line unit. Ironclad vessels are essential.
Plans should be drawn up for conversion in time of war of some two dozen suitable steam line of battle ships.
The ram has a place in modern combat, but that place is not as the primary weapon.
No more heavy wooden vessels should be constructed.
Iron hulled vessels should be investigated for all naval tasks.
The turret should be viewed as a replacement for the pivot gun, as a way to employ very heavy weapons on both broadsides.
Wooden backing for iron armour is critical.
Specialized ships built to defeat mines should be constructed.
Additional notes
The Great Eastern should be retained as a fleet auxiliary.
Experiments are required on the reaction of wooden, iron and part-armoured hulls to Palliser's Shells.
Procurement of a sturdy, reliable rifled breech loader capable of firing Palliser's Shells at a high powder load is seen as important, regardless of weight. (This last is underlined twice.)
Not all of these conclusions are correct, as it will later be determined; however, many of them are solidly reasoned.
On the lessons of the American War and related events
On Strategy
Blockading is and remains an effective economic weapon.
When a foreign power has a large navy, an early step in the blockade is to pin as many vessels as possible in port.
Identification of major ports is essential, and the blockade should start with the most important ports first.
Ships of the corvette class are important for blockading work and for escort through enemy commerce raiding.
When blockading an area containing shipyards, provision should be made of at least one heavy ship of force for each shipyard, with a minimum of one spare vessel in case of rotation. This should be in addition to the normal estimates of force required. Ironclads are desired if possible, and it should be endeavoured that the dispatch of such ships of force not harm the defence of the United Kingdom or her colonies.
Commerce raiding has become less effective against steam vessels. Convoy should only be considered for vital cargoes.
The telegraph should be extended from the United Kingdom to Halifax as soon as possible.
The canals of Canada should be expanded. Alternative routes should be provided if possible.
Sail is still vital for ships expected to cruise.
On Defences
Reduction of fortifications offers greatly increased freedom of action in maintaining a blockade.
Fortifications not of the most modern type are easily reduced by ships with modern weapons. All our own forts should be built with room for growth in weapons and armour.
Small harbour defence ironclads are highly useful as they restrict the freedom of an attacker to reduce forts.
Forts should be able to prevent the entry of shells fired from any range their own guns cannot successfully command.
Mine belts are useful, but degrade quickly when submerged.
On Present Weapons
The smooth-bore cannon armed with shot is not effective against enemy ships, except at close range; exception is made for the 68-lber and 100-lber, which are high velocity weapons able to effectively pierce most modern armour.
Smooth-bore cannon armed with shell are able to do progressive damage to enemy ships.
Light wooden ships are much more vulnerable than heavy wooden ships to both shells and shot.
The contact fuze is far superior to the time fuze for shells.
All ships should carry some armour penetrating shells or shot for their heaviest guns.
The breech loading rifle is effective against wooden and unarmoured vessels at very long range.
The breech loading rifle is ineffective against armour due to the small size of the charge.
The breech loading rifle is extremely effective against fortifications of the current type.
The Martin's Shell is very effective when used on a wooden target.
On Future Building
The wooden ship is still useful, but is no longer a primary battle-line unit. Ironclad vessels are essential.
Plans should be drawn up for conversion in time of war of some two dozen suitable steam line of battle ships.
The ram has a place in modern combat, but that place is not as the primary weapon.
No more heavy wooden vessels should be constructed.
Iron hulled vessels should be investigated for all naval tasks.
The turret should be viewed as a replacement for the pivot gun, as a way to employ very heavy weapons on both broadsides.
Wooden backing for iron armour is critical.
Specialized ships built to defeat mines should be constructed.
Additional notes
The Great Eastern should be retained as a fleet auxiliary.
Experiments are required on the reaction of wooden, iron and part-armoured hulls to Palliser's Shells.
Procurement of a sturdy, reliable rifled breech loader capable of firing Palliser's Shells at a high powder load is seen as important, regardless of weight. (This last is underlined twice.)
Not all of these conclusions are correct, as it will later be determined; however, many of them are solidly reasoned.
I don't suppose that this Palliser is a relative of the other Palliser who helped explore and map western Canada (who may or may not have had much excitement in the Canadian west with the war breaking out)?
On closer look, he might be the same guy.
On closer look, he might be the same guy.
Saphroneth
Banned
At minimum, the conclusion about convoy is extremely wrong. (It's an OTL wrong conclusion, but it's still wrong TTL.)
Small ironclads are also not as useful as described - if it's too small it's not capable enough to harm an attacker following the other recommendations, as it can't carry a heavy anti armour battery. OTL the Enterprise and Research were determined to be too small to be effective at ~1,500 tons.
Other than that, it's broadly correct. (It misses plenty of nuance.)
No, it's someone else. This is Sir William Palliser.
Your Palliser is in fact this Palliser's elder brother.