While Britain has run out of claims for themselves, how about Indian protectorates?Yeh, Seward would be a Bad Idea.
If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)
- Thread starter Saphroneth
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RodentRevolution
Banned
He might not be that bad. Like a lot of hectoring hawks he seems to have been more conciliatory in person than he implied on the stump. In addition he has the personal political capital to spend when he comes down to making minor concessions to preserve major goals.
Saphroneth
Banned
I'm not so sure he was always more conciliatory - he did tell the Duke of Newcastle to his face that he'd insult England immediately upon taking office.
RodentRevolution
Banned
Yes but at least he warned him...we are talking more than as in from a low starting base here...but Seward may be able to adapt to the fact he has lost a war...he managed to cope with losing a presidential campaign nomination and that is even more of a blow to the ego.
19-23 August 1862
Saphroneth
Banned
19 August
The keels are laid on three screw frigates to form the cruising force of the Confederate Navy. They are provisionally named the Washington, Adams and Jefferson - a practice which some assume is calculated to annoy the Union, though the Confederacy as a whole generally considers itself the true heir of many of the early Presidents and sees nothing wrong with the names.
20 August
The Vanderbilt, operating on sail alone for now, steers clear of a cloud of smoke on the horizon thought to be a warship. (This suspicion is incorrect, it is a 3,500 ton steamer trading with Alexandria, but the Vanderbilt does not have a secure enough coal supply for a potential chase if it turns out to be a British warship.)
Admiralty planners look over the accounts from Milne's fleet on how various fortifications were attacked, and begin absorbing and refining the information. Among the lessons that come out are a need for greater focus on mine detection and clearing, the importance of planning based on the specific hydrological environment of the harbour, and the high value of a sufficiently well armoured ironclad. (The spectacular work of Aetna in Boston, with her armour impenetrable to the Union guns and her Armstrong guns able to collapse the fort face with sustained fire at close range, has drawn particular attention.)
As part of a planning exercise, maps are examined of locations such as Sveaborg, Krondstadt, Konstantiniyye (Constantinople), Brest, Charleston, Gosport - generally speaking, all the great dockyards and ports of the world which are neither British nor recently successfully bombarded by the British - to determine the ideal modes of attack.
22 August
The Diet in Prussia indicates it will reject the planned reorganization of the Prussian army, considering it both overly expensive and overly conservative - bluntly, the idea is to sideline the Landwehr (which is a cross-section of society) in exchange for the more peasant-oriented and aristocrat-officered regular army (which would recieve both a large funding boost and a considerable expansion) in Roon's reforms.
The Civil War in America is used as evidence for both sides - the success of the Confederates arguing for an army formed on the outbreak of war, the defeat of the Union arguing against, and the achievements of the British Army causing many conservative Prussian officers mild cases of cognitive dissonance.
Making things worse is the grain market disruption from the Civil War, which has led to a consideration of temporary Diet-funded diet supplements by way of large grain purchases - something which would affect the proposed army funding. (The pun does not work so well in German.)
23 August
Five days of discussion have not helped matters much at Havana. It has been made clear by all the mediators that the Union position is completely unrealistic (Lyons noting that the Union seem not to have remembered they were the ones who sued for peace), the British position is overly ambitious given the facts on the ground, and the Confederate position is at best unworkable.
Meanwhile, hundreds of miles to the west, the Superior Junta of Mexico (consisting mostly of haciendos) proclaims a Catholic Empire of Mexico and appoints an interim President in order to hold a plebiscite across Mexico - specifically, over whether Ferdinand Maximilian of Austria is acceptable as the Emperor of Mexico, a condition Maximilian placed on his taking the throne if offered.
The plebiscite's legitimacy is an enduring question, though many observe it is at least less suspiciously one sided than the elections of Napoleon I and George Washington. (Washington obtained literally every single vote; Napoleon obtained 99.94% of the vote in 1800, 99.76% in 1802 and 99.93% in 1804, as well as 99.67% in 1815. By contrast the Mexican plebiscite is a model of plurality.)
The keels are laid on three screw frigates to form the cruising force of the Confederate Navy. They are provisionally named the Washington, Adams and Jefferson - a practice which some assume is calculated to annoy the Union, though the Confederacy as a whole generally considers itself the true heir of many of the early Presidents and sees nothing wrong with the names.
20 August
The Vanderbilt, operating on sail alone for now, steers clear of a cloud of smoke on the horizon thought to be a warship. (This suspicion is incorrect, it is a 3,500 ton steamer trading with Alexandria, but the Vanderbilt does not have a secure enough coal supply for a potential chase if it turns out to be a British warship.)
Admiralty planners look over the accounts from Milne's fleet on how various fortifications were attacked, and begin absorbing and refining the information. Among the lessons that come out are a need for greater focus on mine detection and clearing, the importance of planning based on the specific hydrological environment of the harbour, and the high value of a sufficiently well armoured ironclad. (The spectacular work of Aetna in Boston, with her armour impenetrable to the Union guns and her Armstrong guns able to collapse the fort face with sustained fire at close range, has drawn particular attention.)
As part of a planning exercise, maps are examined of locations such as Sveaborg, Krondstadt, Konstantiniyye (Constantinople), Brest, Charleston, Gosport - generally speaking, all the great dockyards and ports of the world which are neither British nor recently successfully bombarded by the British - to determine the ideal modes of attack.
22 August
The Diet in Prussia indicates it will reject the planned reorganization of the Prussian army, considering it both overly expensive and overly conservative - bluntly, the idea is to sideline the Landwehr (which is a cross-section of society) in exchange for the more peasant-oriented and aristocrat-officered regular army (which would recieve both a large funding boost and a considerable expansion) in Roon's reforms.
The Civil War in America is used as evidence for both sides - the success of the Confederates arguing for an army formed on the outbreak of war, the defeat of the Union arguing against, and the achievements of the British Army causing many conservative Prussian officers mild cases of cognitive dissonance.
Making things worse is the grain market disruption from the Civil War, which has led to a consideration of temporary Diet-funded diet supplements by way of large grain purchases - something which would affect the proposed army funding. (The pun does not work so well in German.)
23 August
Five days of discussion have not helped matters much at Havana. It has been made clear by all the mediators that the Union position is completely unrealistic (Lyons noting that the Union seem not to have remembered they were the ones who sued for peace), the British position is overly ambitious given the facts on the ground, and the Confederate position is at best unworkable.
Meanwhile, hundreds of miles to the west, the Superior Junta of Mexico (consisting mostly of haciendos) proclaims a Catholic Empire of Mexico and appoints an interim President in order to hold a plebiscite across Mexico - specifically, over whether Ferdinand Maximilian of Austria is acceptable as the Emperor of Mexico, a condition Maximilian placed on his taking the throne if offered.
The plebiscite's legitimacy is an enduring question, though many observe it is at least less suspiciously one sided than the elections of Napoleon I and George Washington. (Washington obtained literally every single vote; Napoleon obtained 99.94% of the vote in 1800, 99.76% in 1802 and 99.93% in 1804, as well as 99.67% in 1815. By contrast the Mexican plebiscite is a model of plurality.)
Strictly speaking Newfoundland is a separate political entity from the Province of Canada!
I'm sure we can tack something else on.
Newfoundland would like those small islands that currently give France a claim to Grand Banks fishing rights. If we are having a proper congress then everything is up for grabs...er discussion.
Saphroneth
Banned
Same is true for British Columbia, Rupert's Land and Nova Scotia, all of which are potentially to expand.
The odd thing is that the real Indian Territory that might result from this is in the Confederacy - the Indians were actually quite pro-CSA, with one Cherokee CS general OTL not surrendering until June 1865... and the friendship treaties are quite startling in what they provide for:
- Perpetual peace and friendship
- Protection provided by the Confederacy
- Confederacy will not abandon or desert them
- Boundaries defined
- Boundaries defined continued
- Safe passage for Choctaws through Chickasaw district
- Choctaw and Chickasaw nations to give full assent to the provisions of the act of the Confederacy
- Confederacy solemnly guarantees the lands held by the Choctaws and Chickasaws forever
- Land never will be sold
- No state or territory laws of the Confederacy will be passed for the Choctaws and Chickasaws governments
- Confederacy renews leased area from the United States
- Indians in the leased area shall be subject to Confederacy laws until they are capable of self-government or subjected to Choctaw and Chickasaw laws.
- Confederacy waterways are free to Choctaw and Chickasaw nations.
- Choctaw and Chickasaw nations have unrestricted right of self-government
- Intruders in Choctaw or Chickasaw nations subjected to removal by the nations or the Confederacy
- Land tracts set aside for Confederacy agencies
- Confederacy forts in Choctaw and Chickasaw country
- Confederacy right of way for railroads, telegraph lines
- No Settlements or farms near forts, posts, or agencies
- Appointments for Confederacy agent and interpreter
- Protection from other domestric strife, white or Indian hostilities
- Legal assistance, intrusion prevention, and removal of dangerous or improper persons
- Property thief and recovery and payments for property not found
- Licensed traders approved by National Council and trading taxed
- United States laws removed that regulated Choctaw or Chickasaw selling
- Choctaws and Chickasaws can take, hold and pass, purchase or descent lands in any of the Confederate States
- Choctaws and Chickasaws are entitled to one representative in the House of Representatives of the Confederate States of America
- Choctaw and Chickasaw country may be admitted as a state when they elect to do so and become citizens in the Confederate States of America
- Land sales proceeds belong to members of the Choctaw and Chickasaw
- If Creek, Seminole, and Cherokee desire to become part of the Confederate States of America, then their countries maybe annexed to become part of the Choctaw and Chickasaw confederate state
- Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations may incorporate and determine who may be citizens of their respective nation
- Confederate citizens trying to settle Choctaw and Chicaksaw Nations forfeits protection of the Confederate States and maybe uncruely punished by said nations
- Confederate citizens may not pasture stock on Choctaw or Chickasaw Nations. Confederate citizens may peaceable pass thru Choctaw or Chickasaw Nations, and the Choctaws and Chickasaws have the same privileges in the Confederate States.
- Violators of laws shall be removed.
- Movement and settlement rights, voting rights, and prosecution in each nations courts.
- Criminal jurisdiction
- Return of criminals between Choctaw/Chickasaw Nations and Confederate State of America.
- Creation of a Confederate States district court called Tush-ca-hom-ma to carry out the provisions of this treaty.
- Acts of Congress of the United States will be continued by the Confederate States, provide the common defense and welfare, district court shall have exclusive jurisdiction.
- Tush-ca-hom-ma district shall have the same admiralty jurisdiction as other district courts of the Confederate States.
- Trials for offenses in nation will be held in Confederate States district court.
- Offenses committed before the signing of the treaty will not be prosecuted.
Napoleon III disapproves of this idea. (Besides, what would you give him in return? The Channel Islands?)
Sindh (Napier unforgiven). Belize.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_treaties_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
Good point, with wider application.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_treaties_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
Good point, with wider application.
Last edited:
Saphroneth
Banned
Oddly, it seems that the CSA was more anti black than the USA, but was more pro red.
so well? Correct. At all? It actually works in at least modern German. I don't know if it's a recent borrowing from English, but "Diät" is a German word. In any case, it's a Latin based word, and educated Germans would be able to figure it out from context, even if it was obscure/a foreign borrowing. IMO.
Saphroneth
Banned
I said "not so well" because the diet word is different, and looks like it might have a different pronunciation. But I think it still works as a pun, so I put the clarifying note.
The British claims are a little fantastic. They're claiming two whole states which have been inside the Union for over a decade and 2 years, while claiming three quarters of another! That would be almost pointlessly insulting to the American delegation, even if they know they're bargaining down.
The Confederate claims really shouldn't include Kansas is all I will say. It's a ratified Free State and would be far too costly for the Confederates to try and hold and they should know it.
Saphroneth
Banned
Remember that it was only ambassadorial reluctance that prevented the initial US claims at Ghent from being "We annex Canada". Extravagant claims are something of the order of the day in situations like this, and I'm going to have things argued down considerably. (For what it's worth, the state stuff the British are making their initial claim for is not far off uti possedis - Pennefather is at Detroit, the Duke of Cambridge was pushing down Lake Champlain more or less by accident and there's about twice as many British troops as Union west of the Rockies.)
Saphroneth
Banned
An interesting aside about how Wikipedia simplifies things - apparently British and US observers of the battle of San Juan de Ulua declared the demise of wooden warships and the era of the ironclad.
This would be a heck of a feat considering the first ironclad warship was not launched for another seven years and the word was not coined until about five years after that!
This would be a heck of a feat considering the first ironclad warship was not launched for another seven years and the word was not coined until about five years after that!
24-25 August 1862
Saphroneth
Banned
24 August
HMS Glatton was discovered to be somewhat rotten when she was being prepared for potential service in the Americas; however, the requirements of the war prevented anything being done about it until July.
As orders were being cut for her breaking up given that the pace of war had slowed, someone (history does not record his identity, but Reed is considered a possible source) suggested using her for fort and naval gun testing against a real target - it has become clear that no systematic treatment of the subject yet existing is adequate to explain combat data from America.
The conversion required for this role is now complete, with a sturdy tow cable fitted nearly two miles in length (to allow a tug to tow her from well outside the danger zone) and much flammable material removed, and the spaces below the waterline packed with cork.
This experiment has interesting results. Some old assumptions are confirmed - that stationary ships must be at anchor to provide a stable firing platform, that a mobile ship is hard to hit from shore at a distance - but one possibly surprising detail is that a steady gun platform can allow rifles to hit with reasonable accuracy at a very long range; indeed, a longer range than any gun currently in service can penetrate the sides of even an old ironclad like Glatton (though once Palliser's Temperature Compensations are worked out it will be debated whether a full-charge 68-lber's penetration distance is more or less than its effective range, as the numbers are close to the critical point and it turns on the quality of the 4" armour plate struck). Plunging fire is a little more effective, though the extremely long range (and hence flight time) required to make a shot plunge given modern guns means that it is quite inaccurate.
Glatton survives these first tests, partly due to the removal of the charge from any Palliser shells fired meaning that nothing set her ablaze, though the shock has still caused significant damage to the rotten sections of her timbers.
25 August
Albert Pike successfully secures 5,000 Enfield rifles from the arsenals of the Confederacy for the militias of the Five Civilized Tribes. Part of the quid pro quo involved is that these Enfield rifles will be used for marksmanship training, and that the Civilized Tribes will each be able to furnish 1,000 foot or mounted riflemen for inspection each year. (Another part, due to the slightly odd nature of the Confederate House of Representatives, is that the Indian Representative lends his vote to the passage of four other bills - including one on subsidy of dredging for the mouth of the Mississippi.)
Pike also siphons off some funds from official military use in order to pay the arrears of the Indians who fought for the Confederacy west of the Mississippi, in a move which is probably illegal but which does earn him considerable credit with the tribes of the Indian Territory.
It is about this time that he writes a pamphlet which extolls the virtues of the Indian lifestyle and specifically its provision for natural training in marksmanship, horse riding, and fieldcraft.
Perhaps Pike's greatest rhetorical flourish during this period of Indian advocacy is that he heavily emphasizes the Union's treatment of the Indians (repeatedly breaking treaties) as being "another example of Yankee perfidy" - faced with such a description, Confederate attitudes tend to evolve to be the opposite! (The contradiction with the doctrine of white supremacy is studiously unexamined - "Red" seems to slot somewhere a little between "White" and "French" on the Confederate scale, well above "Yankee".)
HMS Glatton was discovered to be somewhat rotten when she was being prepared for potential service in the Americas; however, the requirements of the war prevented anything being done about it until July.
As orders were being cut for her breaking up given that the pace of war had slowed, someone (history does not record his identity, but Reed is considered a possible source) suggested using her for fort and naval gun testing against a real target - it has become clear that no systematic treatment of the subject yet existing is adequate to explain combat data from America.
The conversion required for this role is now complete, with a sturdy tow cable fitted nearly two miles in length (to allow a tug to tow her from well outside the danger zone) and much flammable material removed, and the spaces below the waterline packed with cork.
This experiment has interesting results. Some old assumptions are confirmed - that stationary ships must be at anchor to provide a stable firing platform, that a mobile ship is hard to hit from shore at a distance - but one possibly surprising detail is that a steady gun platform can allow rifles to hit with reasonable accuracy at a very long range; indeed, a longer range than any gun currently in service can penetrate the sides of even an old ironclad like Glatton (though once Palliser's Temperature Compensations are worked out it will be debated whether a full-charge 68-lber's penetration distance is more or less than its effective range, as the numbers are close to the critical point and it turns on the quality of the 4" armour plate struck). Plunging fire is a little more effective, though the extremely long range (and hence flight time) required to make a shot plunge given modern guns means that it is quite inaccurate.
Glatton survives these first tests, partly due to the removal of the charge from any Palliser shells fired meaning that nothing set her ablaze, though the shock has still caused significant damage to the rotten sections of her timbers.
25 August
Albert Pike successfully secures 5,000 Enfield rifles from the arsenals of the Confederacy for the militias of the Five Civilized Tribes. Part of the quid pro quo involved is that these Enfield rifles will be used for marksmanship training, and that the Civilized Tribes will each be able to furnish 1,000 foot or mounted riflemen for inspection each year. (Another part, due to the slightly odd nature of the Confederate House of Representatives, is that the Indian Representative lends his vote to the passage of four other bills - including one on subsidy of dredging for the mouth of the Mississippi.)
Pike also siphons off some funds from official military use in order to pay the arrears of the Indians who fought for the Confederacy west of the Mississippi, in a move which is probably illegal but which does earn him considerable credit with the tribes of the Indian Territory.
It is about this time that he writes a pamphlet which extolls the virtues of the Indian lifestyle and specifically its provision for natural training in marksmanship, horse riding, and fieldcraft.
Perhaps Pike's greatest rhetorical flourish during this period of Indian advocacy is that he heavily emphasizes the Union's treatment of the Indians (repeatedly breaking treaties) as being "another example of Yankee perfidy" - faced with such a description, Confederate attitudes tend to evolve to be the opposite! (The contradiction with the doctrine of white supremacy is studiously unexamined - "Red" seems to slot somewhere a little between "White" and "French" on the Confederate scale, well above "Yankee".)
Saphroneth
Banned
I'm thinking next:
Some more stuff about the Vanderbilt
Debates on rifles
Launch of HMS Hector
The Union and the Confederacy both preparing for elections in Kentucky
Prussian crisis comes to a head
Bismarck facepalms
Debates on rifles
Launch of HMS Hector
The Union and the Confederacy both preparing for elections in Kentucky
Prussian crisis comes to a head
Bismarck facepalms
Saphroneth
Banned
They're already doing that.
Nitrate production takes about a year from the set up order to get going, so they're at least five months from any volume production.
And inefficient production is... not likely to exceed OTL efficient production.
Nitrate production takes about a year from the set up order to get going, so they're at least five months from any volume production.
And inefficient production is... not likely to exceed OTL efficient production.
Hmm. I thought it was nitrate farms that took a long time to get into production. If you can get your hands on soil with ready-made nitrates, you can just leach those out. There may be some somewhere in the Union, but finding and transporting them is probably a bit labor intensive.
And yeah, they are going to be way behind OTL, but every little bit helps, I think. Of course, if they absolutely MUST fight, then peace and round two later is likely the most efficient option, but I'd think they would like to keep their options as open as possible at this point.
And yeah, they are going to be way behind OTL, but every little bit helps, I think. Of course, if they absolutely MUST fight, then peace and round two later is likely the most efficient option, but I'd think they would like to keep their options as open as possible at this point.